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Author Topic:   I Don't Understand the Israel/Palestinian Problem
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 31 of 57 (52737)
08-28-2003 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
08-25-2003 9:02 AM


So in response to the qassam rocket attack which did not do any damage, as such missiles rarely if ever have, the Israeli government has declared that Palestinians have crossed a "red-line" which means Israel may take whatever action they want.
There first order of the day was to fire missiles from a jet at a man belonging to a military wing of Hamas while he was driving a donkey cart. Can anyone say overkill?
I certainly can, especially when those missiles also injured three innocent Palestinians including a 4 year old boy who was critically injured.
This is a a very notable quote from the Israeli side...
"I think that it is clear that the heads of terrorist organizations Hamas and Islamic Jihad cannot feel secure any more on their way to the barber's shop, grocery store or mosque, and also on their way back. These people engage in terror, and therefore they are legitimate targets," deputy Israeli army chief of staff Major-General Gabi Ashkenazi told army radio.
The logic of this is nearly transparent. If leaders of Hamas etc etc canot feel safe doing any of these normal everday things, that means no one else on the streets can feel safe either. In fact, as statistics show, innocent Palestinians are more likely going to be killed when leaders are targeted.
Undoubtedly this is supposed to motivate Palestinians to crack down on extremist elements.
Is this not the exact same terrorist tactics used by Hamas etc etc against the Israelis?
Just let me know when it starts getting really obvious who the problem is in this situation, and when the credulity of Palestinians starts making more sense than Israeli and US credulity.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 08-25-2003 9:02 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 08-28-2003 9:08 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 33 by Silent H, posted 08-30-2003 1:17 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 57 (52759)
08-28-2003 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Silent H
08-28-2003 6:59 PM


AS you rightly say, extremist groups here cause all these problems (as they have done throughout history on our good little planet). Unfortuantely, in Israel's case these Extremists have complete governmental control of their country.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Silent H, posted 08-28-2003 6:59 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 33 of 57 (52983)
08-30-2003 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Silent H
08-28-2003 6:59 PM


List keeps going:
-Aug 29, 2003- Palestinian gunment kill Jewish settler and wound his wife. Not certain if this is a sanctioned Hamas/Jihad revenge attack, but must assume it is. And of course it will be treated as one.
-Aug 30, 2003- Israel shoots missiles into Palestinian area killing two militants linked to rocket "attacks" which are notorious for causing little to no damage or injuries. In the process 9 innocent Palestinians are injured. Moderate Palestinian government officials say this has officially killed the peace process. They had been taking measures, including arrests and destruction of methods to make attacks, but Israel's attacks have undercut their support from moderate and extremist Palestinians making further actions futile.
And for those interested in information about why Israel's building the wall was a concern for Palestinians, I just found an excellent article explaining that not only was it designed to grab old Palestinian lands, they were actually grabbing new Palestinian lands, evicting ordinary Palestinians into the street! That last bit was news to me.
You will also see in the article that the US government did not feel this was going to be a good idea. If our side doesn't think so, imagine what Palestinian extremists will think, especially as they watch Israelis illegally kicking Palestinians out of their houses to build a wall.
Here's the ref:
Page Not Found: 404 Not Found -
------------------
holmes
[This message has been edited by holmes, 08-30-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Silent H, posted 08-28-2003 6:59 PM Silent H has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 34 of 57 (53037)
08-31-2003 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Silent H
08-28-2003 12:48 PM


How and why did you get into living this kind of lifestyle? Is it religious based, or as percipient has suggested culturally based?
Religious based. Originally we were just good Bible-believing Christians trying to see the "unity of the Spirit." It seemed silly to us that Christ prayed "...that they may be one, even as you and I are one," but there's 22,000 denominations in the United States.
We talked to all the churches, but they just ended up not liking us very much. In the process, we had to take care of some families having problems, so we moved them into our houses or bought them used mobile homes, and ended up living together.
So uniting Christians was given up as an utter waste of time, and we just tried to ask God what he wanted us to do. We couldn't figure anything out for a while. It seemed like the only thing God had for us was to learn to be together.
We think we figured out why. As Christians we knew nothing at all about loving one another or living in unity, which is why it was such a waste of time trying to unite our "brothers and sisters in Christ." Christianity, as practiced in the United States, is a prescription for division, disagreement, closed-mindedness and close-mindedness' brother, bigotry.
So we had to CHANGE. We had to change a lot. It was a gradual, but pretty quick and rather painful process. We learned along the way that what had to matter to us was the love and unity we spoke of, not issues. We love truth. Truth matters to us. We like to know the answers to our issues, but we believe God is the giver of answers, and he gives answers to those who can put themselves aside and care more about what happens to the other person than about issues.
Here's our conclusions after about 12 years. We don't know much of anything. If the Bible's literal, what's it matter, because we sure can't be trusted to understand it, apply it well, or do anything with it except hurt other people with our opninions. Above all, though, if we look to God, realize how little our opinions can be trusted, then he'll get us through every situation we're in, and in those situations we'll learn things that are reliable, instead of those awful opinions that we had that failed us and everyone else.
Is there a movement going along with it, or is everyone just kind of falling together to see what happens?
See above
Yes, you are much much more interesting than I initially imagined.
Thank you. I think it's interesting. I know it's unusual. We've looked all over for something resembling what we're doing. We'd love to find others like us. Think what fun that would be! In order to do that, we've driven to New England, California, Florida, Indiana, and Missouri, as well as several places in Tennessee. What disappointments we've had. Admittedly, we haven't followed through real well on the non-religious groups like Twin Oaks in NC or one we know about in Arkansas. We'd like to find someone who shares our belief in Christ.
The early days of the Farm in Tennessee may have been similar to us, even though they were hippies, not Christians. They've gotten old and uninterested now, though, or so it seems from the visits I've made there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Silent H, posted 08-28-2003 12:48 PM Silent H has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 35 of 57 (53039)
08-31-2003 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Adminnemooseus
08-28-2003 2:36 PM


Re: A fine sub-topic, but...
Ach, terribly sorry! I just saw your post! What should I do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Adminnemooseus, posted 08-28-2003 2:36 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 08-31-2003 3:13 PM truthlover has replied

  
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 57 (53087)
08-31-2003 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by truthlover
08-31-2003 1:29 AM


Re: A fine sub-topic, but...
Start another topic in which you can detail your lifestyle, use it as a springboard for discussion, etc. When you start it, make sure you provide a link back to your post in this topic, so people can refer to your subtopic in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by truthlover, posted 08-31-2003 1:29 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 37 of 57 (53140)
08-31-2003 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Agent Uranium [GPC]
08-31-2003 3:13 PM


Re: A fine sub-topic, but...
Thanks. I did that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 08-31-2003 3:13 PM Agent Uranium [GPC] has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 38 of 57 (53253)
09-01-2003 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
08-25-2003 9:02 AM


And the band plays on...
Sept 1, 2003- Israel fires missiles into a crowded Palestinian area, killing one militant and wounding 25 (2-3 are miltants, the rest are innocent).
Interestingly enough, a devastating bombing occurred in Iraq this week. If we found out more such planners were in a public square, would/should the US fire missiles from apaches or jets into the crowds to get the men?
And you do realize that Israel's current policy is summary execution without even a trial? And that includes a death sentence for anyone who just happens to be around him at the time?
Just wondering when the obvious becomes obvious.
IMHO it is only a willing and practiced ignorance on this subject, or some total inability to get the news (ala truthlover) which allows one to continue saying the actions of Israel are logical or useful for anything other than terrorism against Palestinians.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 08-25-2003 9:02 AM Percy has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 39 of 57 (53431)
09-02-2003 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
08-25-2003 9:02 AM


Whoops too early with that last post, not that the new news makes my position less correct.
If you haven't heard Israel officially announced its policy today.
CNN.com - Israel vows 'all-out war' on Hamas - Sep. 2, 2003
Here are some brilliant excerpts of their peace plan:
"An all-out war against Hamas and other terrorist elements, including continuous strikes at the organization's leaders";
"Pressure on [focuses] of terror" in the West Bank; and
A freezing of "the diplomatic process with the [Palestinian Authority] ... unless [Israel] sees that the PA is taking tangible steps to deal with the infrastructures of terror."
And of course in anticipation of the success this plan will have at achieving peace...
"The security establishment is preparing for the possibility of a security escalation and renewed wave of terror against Israel,"
Where is there a credible peace plan, when all out war is declared and that war BY NECESSITY will result in the deaths of innocent Palestinians?
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 08-25-2003 9:02 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 09-03-2003 8:44 AM Silent H has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 40 of 57 (53655)
09-03-2003 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Silent H
09-02-2003 12:23 AM


Hi Holmes,
I've already stated my position. Continuing to post replies isn't going to draw me into a response because I'm not really interested in being declared at message after message.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2003 12:23 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Silent H, posted 09-03-2003 12:17 PM Percy has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 41 of 57 (53690)
09-03-2003 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Percy
09-03-2003 8:44 AM


Sorry about that. My posts were not aimed specifically at you, but more at people that might hold your position. I guess you could say I was declaring at the world, not at you. It simply became a matter of convenience to post as replies to your last post.
You may notice that I had a mix of replying to Agent and even to my own posts, because I knew I wasn't responding directly to you.
But I quickly realized that wasn't the most logical thing to be doing as my posts were in response to your kind of position, and not a response to mine or Agent's.
Thus for new readers of the thread I replied to your last post so they could understand what position I was responding to in general, rather than having them scratch their head and wonder why I was posting so emphatically to posts which agreed with my own position.
Since this method has become a problem for you, I will stop posting.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 09-03-2003 8:44 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 09-03-2003 2:04 PM Silent H has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 42 of 57 (53715)
09-03-2003 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Silent H
09-03-2003 12:17 PM


Since this method has become a problem for you, I will stop posting.
Please post as much as you like. I think this is an important topic that deserves discussion. I assumed you were replying to my old posts because you were trying to draw a response, but I think I've already stated my position: I deplore the actions on both sides.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Silent H, posted 09-03-2003 12:17 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Silent H, posted 09-04-2003 6:55 PM Percy has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 43 of 57 (53902)
09-04-2003 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Percy
09-03-2003 2:04 PM


percy writes:
I deplore the actions on both sides.
Actually I understood we were in agreement on this point.
I took the difference between our positions to be that you thought both sides were equally incorrect in how they are "pursuing peace" through violence, and perhaps (your post's seeming implication) that Palestinians were a bit more guilty of credulity/gullibility in trusting extremists to influence their fate.
You also stated that you had no feelings one way or the other on Sharon, and (it would seem) his purpose in using the methods he is employing.
My own position is that, while actions on both sides are deplorable, the Palestinians have been forced into an impossible situation and so their seeming credulity is at worst "understandable".
The situation is quite the opposite for Israeli and US citizens, neither of whom are living under occupation, and have some voice in (or at least knowledge of) what the men in charge of their governments are doing.
Sharon's history speaks for itself, and all one has to due is follow activities in that region to see who is actually undermining the process. And in Sharon's case his purpose IMO is transparent.
I would also argue that, not just "understandable", the seeming credulity/gullibility of moderate Palestinians simply an "illusion" generated by Israeli-US policy. Moderate Palestinians have a government that has not engaged in any violent activities towards Israel, and has been trying to continue with the roadmap in spite of everything going on around them. It is only Israel's refusal to negotiate with the moderate government until activities by separate,uncontrolled extremist organizations end, which has lumped moderates and extremists together in the minds of Israeli and US citizens.
It is true that Palestinians as a whole don't like seeing other Palestinians getting killed, especially as more innocents get killed in the process. And they don't have much pity for innocent Israelis getting killed when 2-3 times as many innocent Palestinians lay dead, and every day more of their land is getting seized.
But this does not mean extremist groups are who the moderate palestinians trust or believe in to negotiate or set policy. That is the Palestinian government, and there has yet to be one attack from that government launched against Israel.
Yet Israel undermines the Palestinian government at every turn, and punishes all Palestinians together, which results in increased radicalization of many moderates. Thus Sharon does more to recruit more moderates into extremist ranks, than the extremists do.
If every time extremists acted, Israel continued with negotiations while opening a new criminal case against specific extremist groups (for trying to undermine the peace process on top of anything else done), and this was how events were reported (instead of "Palestinians killed more Israelis") we might have a different perspective on how credulous the Palestinian people really are.
If you agree with me on all this as well, then I apologize.
Just to be safe, from now on--- if I post anything on this subject--- it'll be as a reply to this post. That way it is clear what position I am arguing for/against.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 09-03-2003 2:04 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 09-05-2003 10:14 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 46 by Silent H, posted 09-09-2003 1:23 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 47 by Silent H, posted 09-14-2003 1:50 PM Silent H has not replied
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 09-25-2003 2:01 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Agent Uranium [GPC]
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 57 (54121)
09-05-2003 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Silent H
09-04-2003 6:55 PM


I don't want to offend anyone with what some people may perceive as 'blasphemy', but "Jesus fucking Christ!" leapt unbidden from my mouth when I saw this:
captioned with:
Israeli soldiers blow up a Palestinian building in which a Palestinian gunman was hiding during a gunbattle with Israeli troops in Nablus September 5, 2003. The destruction of the building left 28 families homeless.
It comes from a Reuters News Article. They did it to get ONE GUY.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Silent H, posted 09-04-2003 6:55 PM Silent H has replied

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 Message 45 by John, posted 09-05-2003 10:42 PM Agent Uranium [GPC] has not replied
 Message 48 by Silent H, posted 09-14-2003 2:03 PM Agent Uranium [GPC] has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 57 (54126)
09-05-2003 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Agent Uranium [GPC]
09-05-2003 10:14 PM


Yep. That's Israel. They're the good guys you know!
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Agent Uranium [GPC], posted 09-05-2003 10:14 PM Agent Uranium [GPC] has not replied

  
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