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Author Topic:   The advantage of limitations. Imagine if humans had had paranormal powers?
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 16 of 56 (177824)
01-17-2005 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
01-17-2005 11:07 AM


Re: Add in telepathy
quote:
What effects, obvious or subtle, whould result from them posessing telekinisis?
They would make really good killers (depending on their level of control). just "push" the right part of the brain and .....

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 56 (179572)
01-22-2005 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
01-17-2005 11:07 AM


Re: Add in telepathy
Jar writes:
Universal telepathy would lead to a common conciousness, what any one individual knew would be available to all others. So as long as one individual knew where there was food right then, or light, or dark, or warth or cooler climate or wetter or dryer, all of the individuals would know.
But universal telepathy also has a few subtle and less obvious side-effects.
It would be worse than having a cellphone on your ear all night while trying to sleep. Would there be a telapathic form of call waiting or call screening?
Would people get along? Would there be competition for status, material needs, and emotional security?
Jar writes:
So, to summarize so far, given telportation and telepathy, we have a people with no language, that will never develop agriculature, cities or housing, no fire and most likely gatherers living off of vegetarian and small easily eaten bugs.
I have not brought God into THIS one yet, but surely there would be a shared belief of sorts, NO?
CharlesKnight writes:
They would make really good killers (depending on their level of control). just "push" the right part of the brain and .....
But if they had that unction to kill, it would be a shared knowledge and the hunted would know when the hunter was coming.....right?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-22-2005 05:04 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 56 (179573)
01-22-2005 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Ben!
01-17-2005 4:13 AM


Re: Consider the effect of teleportaion.
Ben writes:
But how are the humans getting all of the knowledge that needs to go along with their teleportation skills? How do they know where the food, warmth, etc. is?
I'm interested in your line of thought.. looking forward to your answer.
Good point.
1) If all of humanity had telepathic, telekinetic, and teleportable abilities, would there be subdivisions among the population at large?
2) If so, would war be a possibility? With better ability to understand the thoughts of another, why fight?
3) Knowledge would still have to be initially learned. How would such knowledge be shared? Conversely, would it be possible to keep some secrets from others?
4) Is this a closed system of just humans on one planet? If so, would the strong dominate the weak? Or would the meek inherit the earth?

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 19 of 56 (179994)
01-23-2005 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
01-17-2005 3:55 AM


Re: Consider the effect of teleportaion.
Jar,
You got a premise now write the science fiction based on it!
It's been decades so the details are musty but I loved the Alfred Bester novels. One about teleportation which I think had been published with different titles in the US and UK? One of the titles I think was TIGER, TIGER? The problem to be solved was there was a limit to how far people could teleport i.e. they couldn't leave earth and had to teleport by shorter hops. One guy managed to teleport back to earth after a disaster in a space ship and that set the possibility for expansion to the stars. Was the other title THE STARS MY DESTINATION? or am I conflating a title from another book..guess I'll google Bester, haven't thought of him in years.
THE DEMOLISHED MAN was a novel about telepaths and how they served to prevent or solve crime. It's an old fashioned murder myster with a twist. We know who did it but the telepath has to prove it. The courts won't just accept a telepaths say so. They were both exemplary reads of the genre. Anyone else here remember them?
lfen
ABE: Those were the books and Bester's works are still well regarded in the genre
This message has been edited by lfen, 01-23-2005 17:42 AM

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 20 of 56 (179997)
01-23-2005 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
01-17-2005 11:07 AM


Re: Add in telepathy
Jar,
I posted about Bester's novels before reading this and you hit on the problem Bester posed in THE STARS MY DESTINATION. IIRC humans developed teleportation in the future rather than possessing it all along so he didn't have to answer the cultural problems you propose.
lfen

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 56 (179998)
01-23-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
01-22-2005 7:02 AM


Re: Add in telepathy
It would be worse than having a cellphone on your ear all night while trying to sleep. Would there be a telapathic form of call waiting or call screening?
Possibly. It would depend on whether or not having an off switch produces an advantage that helps folk reproduce. Would it be more advantageous to have an off switch or to never miss a warning?
Would people get along? Would there be competition for status, material needs, and emotional security?
I would imagine there would be less competition and folk would likely get along better simply because of empathy. They would be able to directly experience both pain and pleasure experienced by another.
I have not brought God into THIS one yet, but surely there would be a shared belief of sorts, NO?
Don't know. If so why? If not why?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 56 (180000)
01-23-2005 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by lfen
01-23-2005 5:46 PM


Re: Add in telepathy
Bester and many others have beaten on this but the general trend has always been to begin with an existing society and culture, cities, technology and not pre-culture. I've always wondered though if a culture that we would recognize as civilized or even intellegent would arise if we had such capabilities.
What really spurred the initial thought was, "If some future space traveling human found such a race, would they recognize them as even being intelegent?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 23 of 56 (180005)
01-23-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by lfen
01-23-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Consider the effect of teleportaion.
Did you ever read the "Null-A" stories by A.E. van Vogt? The hero {Gilbert Gosseyn (Go Sane?)) could teleport by envisaging a place to 20 decimal point accuracy.
The "Null-A" refers to non-Aristotelian logic ... there were 2 stories in that series. "players of" and "world of"
The Null-A series (The World of Null-A, The Players of Null-A) - A. E. van Vogt
and there were ties to his story "Slan" if memory serves.
(and yeah, the same story with different titles and getting both the english and the american in canada ...)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 24 of 56 (180014)
01-23-2005 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
01-23-2005 5:55 PM


Re: Add in telepathy
Jar,
It's been decades since I've read scifi. John Varley and William Gibson were the last authors I was reading late 70's maybe early 80's?
My memory may cough something up because I have the feeling that there were some stories of encounters with telepathic hive type aliens but nothing more specific than that. I'm amazed I remember as much of Bester as I did. There was a novel about a planet that was one organism and that although it appeared to be simply wild nature defeated the humans who had come to colonize it.
lfen

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 56 (180015)
01-23-2005 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by lfen
01-23-2005 7:37 PM


Re: Add in telepathy
You're probably thinking of The Green Brain by Frank Herbert.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 26 of 56 (180016)
01-23-2005 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by RAZD
01-23-2005 6:07 PM


Re: Consider the effect of teleportaion.
Razd,
Those are two of my top fav scifi novel and I ended up reading SCIENCE AND SANITY because of them. Van Vogt is one of my all time favorite scifi authors. VENUS PLUS X, and a novel about a gestalt being that comprised a hydroencephalic idiot who was telepathic, a girl who had telekineses, two little children who could teleport, and I think a guy was was like the ego and gave them purpose. You remember the title of that book?
I'm loving this nostalgic trip down memory lane.
lfen

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 27 of 56 (180017)
01-23-2005 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
01-23-2005 7:40 PM


Re: Add in telepathy
The title doesn't ring a bell, but I read Herbert so it very well could be.
To look more closely at teleportation. I think some physicists are claiming it happens at the quantum level. But is there any phenomena known that resembles it at the level of atoms even?
Considering telepathy- what is it that is sensed? Intention? Neuronal firing patterns? Dolphins theoretically can play back the sonar images they have experienced so that they can communicate a direct sense impression. John Lily also pointed out they can use ultra sound to see inside of each other and that could give information on emotional states. If I could picture going to where I found berries and you could see the same pictures and thus know how to go there we wouldn't need abstract language. If you could feel what I felt about the berries you might want to go there if they were delicious, but not if they had been sour.
lfen

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 28 of 56 (180025)
01-23-2005 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by lfen
01-23-2005 7:41 PM


Re: Consider the effect of teleportaion.
gosh, I'm coming up blank on that, and I looked for every van Vogt I could find and must have about 20 books back home (out of 300+ total SciFi). yeah, I found the "players" on a summer vacation where someone had left it, and was hooked on SciFi after that. my other favorites are pol anderson (not the fantasy though) gordon r dickson (dorsai, childe cycle), ursula le guin, and a bunch of others.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 56 (180026)
01-23-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by lfen
01-23-2005 7:50 PM


Re: Add in telepathy
If I could picture going to where I found berries and you could see the same pictures and thus know how to go there we wouldn't need abstract language. If you could feel what I felt about the berries you might want to go there if they were delicious, but not if they had been sour.
Exactly. And that is a very, very important point.
As I said in an earlier post, it's unlikely that they would develop language, there would be no word meaning the generalization green, rather the image of what was meant, the green of new grass for example.
This leads back to the issue of GOD, not whether or not GOD exists but whether these people would have a concept of GOD.
Since they would not deal in abstractions, I doubt they would have a concept of GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 30 of 56 (180028)
01-23-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
01-23-2005 8:02 PM


Re: Add in telepathy
This leads back to the issue of GOD, not whether or not GOD exists but whether these people would have a concept of GOD.
Jar,
The concept of God has quite a few important functions for society and individuals. But given Korzybski's "the map is not the territory" one of the truest things we can say about the concept of God is that it's guaranteed to be wrong. Knowing a concept is not the same thing as knowing being.
Seems like in the west religious institutions are focused on getting followers to agree on a concept of God. The great eastern traditions focus on getting people to realize that the greatest barrier to experiencing God is the concept of God. One has to lose the concept in order to experience. So wouldn't we find them sharing the exeriences of love, peace, being? They wouldn't have to have a concept of God if they know God.
lfen

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