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Author Topic:   Good drugs, bad drugs, legal drugs, illegal drugs
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 1 of 115 (32147)
02-13-2003 4:52 PM


I'm spinning this topic off of another topic elsewhere.
From http://EvC Forum: Saddam's a bad guy, so we should.... -->EvC Forum: Saddam's a bad guy, so we should...., zipzip said:
quote:
Geez...you seem to have a problem with our criminal justice system. Few people are in prison for breaking laws they did not know existed. Everybody knows that it is illegal to steal someone else's car, but there are a lot of people in prison for that crime. The fact that they may be disproportionately minorities does not change that. Should we make grand theft auto a misdemeanor or perhaps not a crime at all?
As far as the drug war, the problem has really been protection of the populace. As a physician, I am keenly aware that most banned substances are potentially deadly and/or extremely addictive.
opiods -- ever had to drain an abcess from a heroin abuser who was so addicted heroin was the only thing in his life he gave a damn about? Who would do semi-surgical procedures on himself to get a hit? Have mercy -- heroin destroys life completely. It is the saddest thing I have ever seen and there is no safe recreational form, period.
cocaine-- cardiac arrest, anyone? This is idiosyncratic and nobody can be informed enough of the risks to make it acceptable. It kills and I for one do not want to have to spend another 1000 hours doing CPR on another 1000 dead kids (it hurts to think of these people because it is such a $%#& waste).
pot -- who knows what pot does, but it does have some long term neurolgical sequelae that young kids cannot be informed adequately about. It also makes sherm (pot+formaldehyde) which has produced some of the most messed-up, psychotic, and destroyed kids I have ever seen. A recent study shows that kids who smoke pot are at much increased risk of moving on to more deadly drugs. Pot is not a safe drug...move on.
MDMA/ecstasy -- who knows how many cases of HIV this has led to, deaths from hyperthermia, etc. Also long term neurological sequelae likely. Of course it encourages the use of banned substances that are more likely to kill immediately.
GABA derivatives -- psychosis inducing.
Drug users should not be in jail. But as far as I am concerned, having seen what they do, drug pushers should be put to death. I hate what they do with a passion that knows no bounds.
Now, as far as Europe...have your own opinions. But Arab countries know only strength and weakness, and they despise weakness and will take advantage of it.
To which holmes replied (quote is drug related part of message)
From http://EvC Forum: Saddam's a bad guy, so we should.... -->EvC Forum: Saddam's a bad guy, so we should....
quote:
Zipzip, you may be a great physician, and I do not dispute the horrors of drug addiction you just pointed out, but your fearmongering and slippery-slope arguments regarding general usage of some of them (most notably mdma and pot) are, well... just that.
I would note that you left out the effects of general usage and addiction to alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine. All are currently legal though the first two have been considered gateway drugs, and alcohol itself was the target of the first war on drugs.
The US feared that alcohol would weaken america, using all the fearmongering and slipperyslope arguments you just used for currently illegal drugs, and so made it illegal. The result was a worsening of the problem for those with alcohol addictions, and the creation of new and violent problems for the rest of society.
In fact, prohibition created "pushers" of alcohol back then, that people wanted to see just as dead as you want to see the manufactered "pushers" of today.
Eventually the regulation of social norms regarding alcohol were found to be a failure. End of prohibition.
However, after 30 some odd years we went right back to prohibition like a junkie to a needle. Now it's these new drugs that are a threat to our strength and will weaken our standing in the world if we let people use them. Let's have a WAR ON DRUGS!
Come to think of it let's have a WAR against anything we don't like. Anything that poses a threat to our strength.
I'll chip in with my comments a bit later, but I wanted to get this topic started, before it ran on any further at the other topic.
Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 02-13-2003 5:43 PM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 5 by Syamsu, posted 02-16-2003 1:52 PM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 10 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-25-2003 4:34 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 115 (32154)
02-13-2003 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
02-13-2003 4:52 PM


I have to wonder about the claim that there is a link between Ecstasy and HIV. If the link is unprotected sex, isn't alcohol likely as bad - and if ecstasy (and illegal alternatives) were not available wouldn't alcohol takes its place with much the same effect ?

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 3 of 115 (32160)
02-13-2003 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by PaulK
02-13-2003 5:43 PM


Make sure you understand, zipzip wasn't even claiming there was a link between E and HIV, merely asking a question to insinuate there must be an answer.
Not only would alcohol make a stronger candidate for such a claim (if he had made one) between E and HIV, but it would become the obvious next target after E and Pot were removed (since they are both illegal drugs).
Of course the list is endless. After alcohol, what activity would have a high correlation to the spread of HIV? And so on and so on...
holmes

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by nator, posted 02-17-2003 2:01 AM Silent H has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 115 (32364)
02-16-2003 10:02 AM


Sigh... nothing like a good hash milkshake after a long day in the office...

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5589 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 5 of 115 (32381)
02-16-2003 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
02-13-2003 4:52 PM


I think if prostitution and drugs and those things, are legalized, then they will be very generally used, like by 25 - 75 percent of the people or something. Drug use is now still much a shady business run by shady people, but after legalization well lawyered corporations will take over, which would result in general usage. Sure one might resist 1 time if legalized, but in a lifetime you would be faced with the choice a couple of thousand times through advertising and people you know. It would become a significant drag to resist. So that's why I prefer not to have those things legalized. There is a slippery slope towards more legalization once you start with legalizing, and a slippery slope of using the drug as a psychological addiction to escape problems in stead of just recreation.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-13-2003 4:52 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 6 of 115 (32407)
02-17-2003 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Silent H
02-13-2003 6:11 PM


IS there less um, whiskey-dick problems with E?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Silent H, posted 02-13-2003 6:11 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 02-17-2003 2:08 AM nator has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 7 of 115 (32408)
02-17-2003 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
02-17-2003 2:01 AM


[QUOTE] by schraf++++++++++++++
IS there less um, whiskey-dick problems with E?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Good point, from what I hear E tends to make you feel pretty frisky, but I ASSUME (which means I could be wrong) that there is a point where you are too out of it to... perform.
There's a study for somebody somewhere.
holmes

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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 8 of 115 (47459)
07-25-2003 3:27 PM


just a bump as I thought it was an interesting topic...
might reply later
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 115 (47461)
07-25-2003 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Silent H
02-17-2003 2:08 AM


I heard (from a friend of mine who used to be into drugs) that sex under E was a bad idea... something like having an orgasm on E will ruin non-drug sex for you, forever. Or it lesions the pleasure center of your brain or something.
Of course this is all hearsay.

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Replies to this message:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 115 (47466)
07-25-2003 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
02-13-2003 4:52 PM


quote:
pot -- who knows what pot does, but it does have some long term neurolgical sequelae that young kids cannot be informed adequately about.
For what it's worth, my girlfriend's father is a neuropsychopharmacologist. (For those who don't know, it's just a fancy way of saying "a doctor whose specialty is the effect of chemicals on the brain.") He says pot is harmless. Like any substance (from alcohol right down to ice cream) it can harm you if you abuse it. But smoking up every so often won't hurt you.
Look back at stats for binge drinking during prohibition as oppose to legal times. Abuse would most likely go down if weed were legal. At the very least, government regulation would provide an age requirement like with alcohol.
quote:
It also makes sherm (pot+formaldehyde) which has produced some of the most messed-up, psychotic, and destroyed kids I have ever seen.
How many substances would you say are safe when mixed with formaldehyde? Should we make any substance which is not safe when mixed with formaldehyde illegal?
quote:
A recent study shows that kids who smoke pot are at much increased risk of moving on to more deadly drugs.
Just as many studies will show you there's no direct causal relationship.
If there's any connection, it's because you can't tell a kid "both pot and heroin (or fill-in-the-drug) are horrible for you. Don't do them or there will be serious health risks," then have the kid try pot, find out you were lying, and still assume you were telling the truth about heroin.
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 07-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-13-2003 4:52 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7184 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 11 of 115 (47467)
07-25-2003 4:52 PM


schrafinator writes:
IS there less um, whiskey-dick problems with E?
On the street nowadays, MDMA is frequently cut with a wide array of various other illicit substances ranging from speed to heroin to mescaline to ketamine or more. Depending on the purity of the tab of E, and the substance that it is cut with if any, the effects on impotence can vary widely. I don't think it is known to cause a viagra-like effect at all, but relatively pure MDMA can increase an individuals sensitivity to arousal to a certain extent. MDMA also has a slight dissociative effect, however, that can interfere with communicating that psychological arousal to the appropriate parts of the anatomy.
crashfrog writes:
I heard (from a friend of mine who used to be into drugs) that sex under E was a bad idea... something like having an orgasm on E will ruin non-drug sex for you, forever. Or it lesions the pleasure center of your brain or something.
This is an urban legend. Sex on ecstacy is highly enjoyable when it can be managed, yes, but sex after that is no different than before.
Now, masturbating on acid on the other hand... (j/k)
Dan Carroll writes:
How many substances would you say are safe when mixed with formaldehyde? Should we make any substance which is not safe when mixed with formaldehyde illegal?
That made me laugh.
Blessings,
::
"Its not a war on drugs, its a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times" --Bill Hicks.
[This message has been edited by ::, 07-25-2003]
[This message has been edited by ::, 07-25-2003]

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 115 (47468)
07-25-2003 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by :æ:
07-25-2003 4:52 PM


quote:
That made me laugh.
I do my best.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Adminnemooseus, posted 11-14-2003 10:03 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 13 of 115 (66470)
11-14-2003 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dan Carroll
07-25-2003 5:42 PM


BUMP
.
AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-25-2003 5:42 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 115 (66477)
11-14-2003 10:39 AM


Admin Narceus booted the drug talk back to the drug thread. But the last reply was from Coragyps, I believe...
quote:
Except that the word "assassin" comes from the same root as "hashish" - some Middle Eastern bunch back in Crusades days would get wrecked on hash (the resin-off-pot-flowers sort) and then go do battle.
It must have worked differently back then.
What, you're saying assassins in the Crusades didn't have a predisposition toward psychotic behavior?

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 15 of 115 (96961)
04-02-2004 2:05 AM


Ecstasy documentary/news show on U.S. TV on 4/1/04
ABC television just broadcast a news show on Ecstasy. Much of the focus was on how the U.S. government exagerated the dangers, beyond any valid data (Not to mention that some lab rats were injected with speed by mistake).
The part I really found ironic, however, were the commercial breaks with corporate America pushing their pharmaceutical products. I had to wonder what the relative effects and safety of the various drugs were?
Unfortuately, I don't recall what drugs were being advertised. I think some or all may have been kind of allergy/feel good drugs. May have been some anti-depression type drugs. No Viagra ads though. That would have been the ultimate irony. I wonder where Viagra would be today, if it had come up a street drug, and not a corporate product?
Good drugs, bad drugs, legal drugs, illegal drugs. And the most troubling, the spam drugs.
Moose

  
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