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Author Topic:   "Jesus was Caesar" by Francesco Carotta
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 33 (204575)
05-03-2005 7:00 AM


The general thrust appears to be not a claim that they were the same person, but rather that the cult of christianity is the cult of Divus Iulius in disguise. Thus the suggestion is:
quote:
Then in that case, the Revelation would tell the story of the Egyptian campaign of Octavianus in mystical form. The woman and the dragon would be Cleopatra and her crocodile (representing Egypt), the Antichrist and his prophet would be the flamen Divi Iulii Antonius, the decline of Babylon that of Alexandria, the lamb would represent the Capricorn Octavianus who finally becomes the Christ after the victory (absolute heir andafter Lepidus’ deathpontifex maximus as well), and the millennium is the Imperium Romanum with the new Jerusalem, of course, being Rome.
Thats not inherently silly.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Aquitaine, posted 05-03-2005 10:24 PM contracycle has not replied
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 33 (205155)
05-05-2005 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
05-05-2005 2:48 AM


Re: The TRUE story
quote:
No, this makes even less sense.
It helps if you try to follow the argument first, and then criticise it later.
quote:
In an account supposedly starting with the civil wars between Caesar and Pompey, Pompey is seen as a simple predecessor to Caeasar ? And why would Pompey be seen as the originator of baptism anyway ?
Pompey was specifically the Golden Child of roman senatorial politics for several decades in his youth, achieved ranks he should have been too young to be eligible for, and had a very impressive career as a general. In many ways, yes, he laid the foundations for the one-man rule the Caesar actually implemented (... by accident, as some would say), and so again, it is not prima facie ridiculous to see in him an analogy to John.
And the lustration perfoemd by soldiers probably goes back to the very early republic as a ritual of entry into the military. Nothing in the above seems to suggest the claim is that Pompey invented the lustration, but rather, again, that the event of Pompey's raising legions and inducting troops, is beeing echoed in covert terms in the christian doctrine.
Please note I have not read the site further, nor do I have an opinion on its content. But you appear to be assuming the worst, and then reading the content in that light.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 05-05-2005 05:19 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2005 2:48 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2005 5:46 AM contracycle has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 33 (205175)
05-05-2005 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by PaulK
05-05-2005 5:46 AM


Re: The TRUE story
quote:
You're not taking account of the context. Supposedly the story BEGINS with Caesar crossing the Rubicon, initiating the armed conflict. In that conflict Pompey is the leading opponent. So Pompey's role in this part of the story is markedly different from the role of John the Baptist.
Well, fair enough, except remember that Caesar is married to Pompeys daughter IIRC and in some senses his protege. Yes they do end as opponents, but they have a long shared history prior to that.
quote:
And why see Pompey as setting the foundations for "one man rule" ?Surely Sulla is a better candidate ?
Because Sulla got Early Leader Syndrome:
The L-Space Web - A Terry Pratchett / Discworld Web® Site
quote:
So why are baptisms not presented as an old custom in the Gospels ?
Shrug. Dunno. Maybe they were implying that the barbarians have adopted civilised ways.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 05-05-2005 08:00 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2005 5:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 33 (205198)
05-05-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulK
05-05-2005 6:26 AM


Re: The TRUE story
Well, becuase Pompey was a much more plausible inheritor of the precedent established by Sulla than Caesar. Pompey was famous, established, popular. Caesars actual triumph in the civil war was a bit of an upset, and I don't think most people would have bet on it at the time. Hence, one might plausibly see that the mandate of heaven had passed from Pompey to Caesar.
But please remember I am not actually defending the theory. But that said, there have been other speculations that Roman christianity is really the cult of Sol Invictus, and so the liturgical text as constructed in order to suggest relations and imply inevitability would have been right up its imperial ally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2005 6:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2005 8:54 AM contracycle has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 33 (205219)
05-05-2005 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by PaulK
05-05-2005 8:54 AM


Re: The TRUE story
quote:
But the fact is that Sulla forced his way into the Dictatorship and held it, refusing to resign after 6 months according to the tradition.
So in terms of establishing the rule of a single man over Rome, Sulla is more of a precedent than Pompey (who never achieved that).
Yes, fair enough, that the way we understand the history. Thats also why of you were a Divus Juliius partisan you would probably rather elide such matters, eh?
The proposition is that this is a propgandist reification of Juliian camps point of view. Comparing it to strict history seems rather innapropriate; the claim being advanced is that it IS propganda, not history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2005 8:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2005 11:53 AM contracycle has not replied
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