Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Political Identity Crisis
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 54 of 153 (282111)
01-28-2006 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by randman
01-28-2006 2:56 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
you think the French only became healthier due to socialism? You are way off the deep end here. The French smoke, yea, but they eat better quality food and walk more.
Europeans do tend to walk or bike more, and they may (on average) eat slightly less food. That said, they hardly eat better quality food. The food in Europe is essentially the same thing, if not worse. You have much fewer options for "health" food as you do in the US, and much of it is fried just the same as in the US. In fact, my own experiences are that they generally eat "junk" food more often. Candy, grease, smoke, and alcohol are ever present.
Although genetics could be an issue, I'm not sure why it is easy to discount the forms of healthcare they enjoy, as well as the different lifestyles they enjoy under more socialist systems.
Stress leads to a lot of health problems, and there is palpably less stress in European lifestyles than in the US. If you are in a bad position financially in the US, there is much more to worry about than in the same position in most European communities. There is much more emphasis on success and work, and less on enjoying one's life or family (except in materialist fashion) in the US.
This isn't very scientific or anything but it would seem to me less stress, and better access to healthcare goes a lot further in explaining differences in health, than that they eat better food. By the way frites ("french" fries) seem more common here than in the US, and when you are generally topping a large sack (their small is larger than US large) of them with mayo AND salt... yeah, its hard to say better food.
Not to undercut that diet and exercise is important.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by randman, posted 01-28-2006 2:56 AM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 01-28-2006 1:13 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 79 of 153 (282275)
01-29-2006 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by nator
01-28-2006 1:13 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
I'm not sure if people are eating as much of the unprocessed foods, despite their availability, in such great numbers that it would make a difference statistically. While local grocer shopping may have been popular in the past, chain food stores are essentially the norm now, with local grocers being more like convenience stores.
Cheeses are definitely better, and one can get what appears to be fresher fruit in open air markets.
I am of course not married to this, and am open to any evidence. I freely admit my experiences may be skewed by living in urban areas (in the US) where health food stores abound as a trend. But I will tell you one thing, you sure as hell can get fresh fish all over the place, especially in the benelux/scandinavian areas. Frankly I don't see how people don't die of food poisoning from eating fish as "fresh" and raw as they do.
Vegetable, olive oil, and whole grain consumption is much higher in Europe compared the the US, especially in Mediterranean countries.
I believe you've told me this before, and I forget exactly how this works. What is the most healthy oil(s) to cook in? And then what is the difference between commonly used oils in europe v us? When I worked food service years ago we always used vegetable oil for cooking. I can't remember which kind though.
It amused me to find that people here have home deep friers like it is the most common thing to have a miniature one of those tubs you see at McDs in your own kitchen.
But, since they eat more good stuff, especially red wine, they have more protection.
Actually I was wondering about that. Do you know if port offers the same protections? Especially tawny or ruby port?
constant generalized anxiety is more and more considered to be a major contributing factor to disease.
I guess that's what I was trying to go for anyway. Regardless of what they eat, they seem to have less stress about life in general as they live it in a different way... less "sinful" feelings, including guilt about doing nothing and just relaxing. And yeah, not so much guilt when they glob the mayo on a big sack of frites. That's what they want damnit!

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 01-28-2006 1:13 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 9:31 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 81 of 153 (282323)
01-29-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by nator
01-29-2006 9:31 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
This is interesting to me. Do you have any documentation or support for this to send me to so I can read more?
No I have no documentation, I was hoping you could supply some. I'm simply speaking from anecdotal experience. The stores carry the same kind of junk food as in the US, as well as the restaurants, and that seems to be what people generally buy and eat.
Maybe things have radically changed in Europe in the past 15 years, because that's certainly enough time for such change to happen, but I am doubtful.
I can't speak for every nation, especially the likes of portugal and spain. However change in many nations here have been dramatic over the last 5-10 years (mainly the last 5). When I first visited Netherlands the chain stores were just getting started and there was discussion of their threat to the smaller grocers, now they are set and growing. Albert Hein essentially has a monopoly in A'dam central.
Maybe Parsomnium has more lifetime experience on this, or someone else in mainland Europe?
Are you saying that people eat raw fish that is not fresh, as in they eat spoiled raw fish?
I'm just saying that it doesn't look healthy. These quaint fish sellers might pull a fish from a bucket with what looks like filthy water (containing other whole dead fish), then chop chop chop, sprinkle onions and there you go. Brrrrrr.
Ahh, port.
I'm not a huge alcohol drinker (particularly because of a digestive condition), though I used to love harder drinks over beer and wine. My gf got me into drinking red wine (I cannot stand white) and I thought it was great to hear there were benefits. Within this last year I discovered port and I couldn't be happier. Its like a cross between wine and whisky to me. If it has health benefits, that'll be some sweet medicine.
I prefer tawny though.
Also, since they are generally raised on much more high-quality food and home cooking, their palates and tastes are much more homed to good flavor.
Heheheh... not in the Netherlands though. Dutch cuisine is notoriously bland.
Here, people try to "eat right" and then binge on junk when they can't take the boring eating anymore. The reason "eating right" is so boring, is because Americans are so divorced from the kitchen that they don't know how to prepare simple dishes from fresh ingredients, and therefore resort to frozen meals and health food store stuff, which is at times underseasoned and blah.
I agree... though I also believe lifestyle stress outside just eating is also a contributing factor.
Thanks for all the info.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 9:31 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Parasomnium, posted 01-29-2006 5:17 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2006 9:23 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 90 of 153 (282476)
01-30-2006 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Parasomnium
01-29-2006 5:17 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
But things are changing faster than ever, with this price-war between the supermarket chains going on.
Me and my gf went out looking for competitors within A'dam central and it turned out there no longer were any, AH drove them all out. I've got 3 AHs within a short walking distance, and nothing else for at least a kilometer or two. About the only thing I can be glad about is that they have pretty decent hours for convenience type shopping (which is definitely one of the changes within the last 5 years).
I can assure you that, although it may look horrendous, it's actually quite tasty, and very fresh. If it weren't, these fish mongers would be out of business very quickly.
Well McDs isn't exactly tasty or fresh and they are doing wonders (same for FEBO). But yeah my gf and her dad love that stuff and if people were disgusted or dying the quaint little shopd would close. Its just everytime I go out to get my gf some herring I watch them at work and think... how can this be good?
You see a couple of typical Dutch blokes eating herring the Dutch way, i.e. holding it by the tail and lowering it into their mouths to bite off chuncks. The herrings are smothered in sause and onion sprinkle, which sticks to the corner of their mouths
Yes, there is a question of how long I have to wait after lunch before kissing my gf. On a funny note some friends from the US came in to visit and had no clue about that method of eating. They were walking through the city and saw those shops with their common stand up of a traditionally clad girl eating herring in that fashion, but they didn't quite understand.
We got a big laugh when we found out they thought those signs were of girls eating something quite different. I suppose it doesn't help when one is in A'dam and sees signs of girls doing similar things on different shops.
That's why I prefer Italian food.
Although I generally prefer American style Chinese food, I love the fact that the dutch offer sate sauce everywhere. Its like nowhere except in chinese or thai joints in the US, so when I found it even in the frites shops I was in heaven. Its one of the things that me and my gf missed when we returned to the US for a while.
Then again, it seems many places are changing their sate recipes for some new crappy version.
That said, I do like hutspot (sp?) even if it is bland, and I love suriname food. I never knew of it in the US and could not find it once I was aware of it. Roti is absolutely delicious, and I guess in some ways that could be called "dutch"? Does conquering count?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Parasomnium, posted 01-29-2006 5:17 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Parasomnium, posted 01-30-2006 7:52 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 91 of 153 (282477)
01-30-2006 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by RAZD
01-29-2006 9:23 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
There's something worse than English cooking?
I didn't say it was horrible... just very bland.
My gf went to england and said the food was definitely worse there. Then again we both like english fish n chips, and I have to admit I am growing fond of batterfried hamburger and chip "butty" at a local authentic english diner.
I found the Dutch ristaffel (rice table) - a smorgasborg of indonesian cuisine
Thankfully my gf's mom liked foreign cuisine and had her own version of that which was delicious.
I'd get to sample native cuisine in a native environment ... they went to Kentucky Fried Chicken.
One world culture marches on.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2006 9:23 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 101 of 153 (282914)
01-31-2006 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Tal
01-31-2006 9:02 AM


having an identity crisis of your own?
Not that I am for Hamas, but your attempt to make them look bad has me scratching my head.
1) You quotemined the charter cutting off the full role they see women fulfilling...
...and play a great role in guiding and educating the [new] generation.
2) How is what you quoted any more ridiculous than the mysogynist passages of the Bible.
I mean there is plenty bad to say about Hamas, but what you chose seems to be something that shoots yourself in the foot.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Tal, posted 01-31-2006 9:02 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Tal, posted 01-31-2006 3:17 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 103 of 153 (282936)
01-31-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Tal
01-31-2006 3:17 PM


Re: having an identity crisis of your own?
What's your favorite quote from the charter?
Why? This doesn't answer my points about your attempting to joke about it. Personally, I do not like Hamas, so picking out pieces to simply mock it is a bit ghoulish.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Tal, posted 01-31-2006 3:17 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2006 5:50 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 106 of 153 (283060)
02-01-2006 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by crashfrog
01-31-2006 5:50 PM


Re: having an identity crisis of your own?
I like the hamas made with roasted red peppers the best.
My guess is the mideast sandwich is going to get hot enough without the red peppers.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2006 5:50 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 108 of 153 (283113)
02-01-2006 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Tal
02-01-2006 9:38 AM


Re: having an identity crisis of your own?
Chiro has the idea! That is a good one too Chiroptera.
Yeah, but you don't seem to get the idea that the same thing can be done with things you like, for example the Bible. It doesn't seem consistent, to rip into them when your own handbook contains even worse commentary (and it doesn't have to be quote mined).
I simply found that part hilarious. "Yes, women are equal because they produce men."
Yeah, but that is a fiction of quotemining. There was an AND after that. Its not because they produce men, it is because they do that AND something else, something which if left in does not seem so silly.
Look, I don't like Hamas, and I can certainly agree that an idea women are useful as they produce men would be demeaning to women to some degree. I do have to wonder if that meant "men" as in people, or as in males (it can be used both ways), but am not going to bother trying to find out. If you find mysogynist passages funny, why did you have to pick on Hamas? It looks like you are trying to point out the splinter in another person's eye so that no one notices the log in your own.
By the way, have you seen any zionist literature discussing the importance of women producing children for the cause?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 9:38 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 10:48 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 110 of 153 (283170)
02-01-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Tal
02-01-2006 10:48 AM


Re: having an identity crisis of your own?
You would have a point if I were ripping the Koran. But I'm not. So you don't. What I am ripping is thier political beliefs as stated in their political charter.
??? What difference does that make? My point is that you seem to be laughing at something which exists within literature of your own professed belief system.
If you laughed at some group who said "monkeys are our masters from outerspace", it seems odd to suggest I'd be errant in pointing that your religious lit says the same thing, simply because you were pointing at the other group's political lit.
Want to pick on mine?
Uh, Hamas isn't a gov't its an organization. The correct analogy, if you are being so tight as to deny pointing to the Bible, would be to whatever political group you belong to. Let me know what it is and I'll see if I can find something funny in it.
Because they are a terrorist organization.
Uh yeah, but then that does not explain why you chose a quote that is essentially shared by many other people, including your own faith.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 10:48 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 2:54 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 113 of 153 (283342)
02-02-2006 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tal
02-01-2006 2:54 PM


Re: having an identity crisis of your own?
How is the Hamas charter literature of my own professed belief system?
??? I said the thing you are laughing at (in their charter) exists within literature of your own professed belief system (the Bible). I'm not accusing you of supporting Hamas.
Hamas is a political party, ie part of the gov't. Just read some news from the past week or, apparently they won an election.
Hamas is a political party and thus comparisons of their charter (for them) to the Constitution (for you) would be inaccurate. Hamas is to the Palestinian gov't as X is to the US gov't. Just fill in the X... I'm assuming you are republican, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 2:54 PM Tal has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024