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Author Topic:   Political Identity Crisis
Faith
Member
Posts: 26702
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 153 (778135)
02-17-2016 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Blue Jay
02-17-2016 12:39 PM


Re: Testing the Test
I think one big issue is that they define "Left" and "Right" in an unorthodox way,

I wouldn't know where to begin to sort it out but I think you're right that there's something very wrong with their definitions. I suspect they lean Left and have the usual distorted view of the Right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Blue Jay, posted 02-17-2016 12:39 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by caffeine, posted 02-18-2016 2:50 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 137 of 153 (778157)
02-17-2016 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
02-17-2016 1:22 PM


Re: Testing the Test
If you were right about how the Republicans would score, then I should have scored up there with them and I didn't.

What you say here makes no sense.

Did you respond to the questions as Percy indicated? If you did, then you would inevitably have received the same score Percy did. If you responded differently, then we have no way to compare your score with Percy's or anyone else's.

I speculated that Ted Cruz's answers were similar to Percy's. So your example of your own score is not relevant.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 02-17-2016 1:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 02-17-2016 5:03 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26702
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 153 (778164)
02-17-2016 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by NoNukes
02-17-2016 4:27 PM


Re: Testing the Test
Did Percy put those markers for the Republican candidates on the chart he posted? Trump, Rubio, Cruz, Bush in the far upper right corner of the chart? I thought those were part of the test-makers illustration of the test.

I just went back and read Percy's post, and clearly he is trying to find out what they would have had to have done on the test to get those scores, so the scores were already given.

That's what I'm talking about. My own scores are at 1 and .1, far from those in the upper right corner. If Percy placed those markers, then I apologize, I misunderstood, but it doesn't read to me as if he did.

So those scores were presented as fairly representing those four candidates, and not by Percy. So when you said you agreed that Cruz would score as presented on that chart, you were agreeing with the makers of the test, and my point was that if that score fairly represented Cruz then I should have scored up there with him. Or even if you were agreeing with Percy's assessment of Cruz if it were correct my score should have been up there with his.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by NoNukes, posted 02-17-2016 4:27 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2016 10:36 AM Faith has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 139 of 153 (778210)
02-18-2016 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Percy
02-16-2016 9:23 AM


Re: Testing the Test
Did pretty much the same test, though I did not record my answers. I did put "strongly disagree" on the astrology question.

Economic Left/Right: 10.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 8.62

So you got higher Authoritarian and I got higher(est) Economic Right.

Maybe some answers need to have no opinion (don't matter one way or the other)?

It is also interesting to see how they graded the historical figures

It seems that the only thing that differentiates our GOP candidates from Stalin and Hitler is their economic grades, and Hitler is a little surprising there, perhaps due to government control of business (the state more important than the business)?

quote:
... Similarly Hitler, on an economic scale, was not an extreme right-winger. His economic policies were broadly Keynesian, and to the left of some of today's Labour parties. If you could get Hitler and Stalin to sit down together and avoid economics, the two diehard authoritarians would find plenty of common ground.

That seems to explain it somewhat. He could not have been totally government hands-off business though.

I'll try for a wacked-out liberal next ...

[abe] ... using the opposite answers (except #7 which I should change for WOC) I got:

Economic Left/Right: -7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.51

For the whacked-out liberal (WOL) ... either it is harder to be WOL or I am missing something.

[abe2] ... flipped #7 for WOC and got

Economic Left/Right: 10.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 9.08

This is the Faux Noise Nutwerk being okay to broadcast false information ...

Enjoy



Answers:

  1. If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations. -- Strongly disagree
  2. I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong. -- Strongly agree
  3. No one chooses his or her country of birth, so it's foolish to be proud of it. -- Strongly disagree
  4. Our race has many superior qualities, compared with other races. -- Strongly agree
  5. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. -- Strongly agree
  6. Military action that defies international law is sometimes justified. -- Strongly agree
  7. There is now a worrying fusion of information and entertainment. -- Strongly agree

  8. People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality. -- Strongly disagree
  9. Controlling inflation is more important than controlling unemployment. -- Strongly agree
  10. Because corporations cannot be trusted to voluntarily protect the environment, they require regulation. -- Strongly disagree
  11. "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a fundamentally good idea. -- Strongly disagree
  12. It's a sad reflection on our society that something as basic as drinking water is now a bottled, branded consumer product. -- Strongly disagree
  13. Land shouldn't be a commodity to be bought and sold. -- Strongly disagree
  14. It is regrettable that many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate money and contribute nothing to their society. -- Strongly disagree
  15. Protectionism is sometimes necessary in trade. -- Strongly disagree
  16. The only social responsibility of a company should be to deliver a profit to its shareholders. -- Strongly agree
  17. The rich are too highly taxed. -- Strongly agree
  18. Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care. -- Strongly agree
  19. Governments should penalise businesses that mislead the public. -- Strongly disagree
  20. A genuine free market requires restrictions on the ability of predator multinationals to create monopolies. -- Strongly disagree
  21. The freer the market, the freer the people. -- Strongly agree

  22. Abortion, when the woman's life is not threatened, should always be illegal. -- Strongly agree
  23. All authority should be questioned. -- Strongly disagree
  24. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. -- Strongly agree
  25. Taxpayers should not be expected to prop up any theatres or museums that cannot survive on a commercial basis. -- Strongly agree
  26. Schools should not make classroom attendance compulsory. -- Strongly disagree
  27. All people have their rights, but it is better for all of us that different sorts of people should keep to their own kind. -- Strongly agree
  28. Good parents sometimes have to spank their children. -- Strongly agree
  29. It's natural for children to keep some secrets from their parents. -- Strongly disagree
  30. Possessing marijuana for personal use should not be a criminal offence. -- Strongly disagree
  31. The prime function of schooling should be to equip the future generation to find jobs. -- Strongly agree
  32. People with serious inheritable disabilities should not be allowed to reproduce. -- Strongly agree
  33. The most important thing for children to learn is to accept discipline. -- Strongly agree
  34. There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only different cultures. -- Strongly disagree
  35. Those who are able to work, and refuse the opportunity, should not expect society's support. -- Strongly agree
  36. When you are troubled, it's better not to think about it, but to keep busy with more cheerful things. -- Strongly agree
  37. First-generation immigrants can never be fully integrated within their new country. -- Strongly agree
  38. What's good for the most successful corporations is always, ultimately, good for all of us. -- Strongly agree
  39. No broadcasting institution, however independent its content, should receive public funding. -- Strongly agree

  40. Our civil liberties are being excessively curbed in the name of counter-terrorism. -- Strongly disagree
  41. A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system. -- Strongly agree
  42. Although the electronic age makes official surveillance easier, only wrongdoers need to be worried. -- Strongly agree
  43. The death penalty should be an option for the most serious crimes. -- Strongly agree
  44. In a civilised society, one must always have people above to be obeyed and people below to be commanded. -- Strongly agree
  45. Abstract art that doesn't represent anything shouldn't be considered art at all. -- Strongly agree
  46. In criminal justice, punishment should be more important than rehabilitation. -- Strongly agree
  47. It is a waste of time to try to rehabilitate some criminals. -- Strongly agree
  48. The businessperson and the manufacturer are more important than the writer and the artist. -- Strongly agree
  49. Mothers may have careers, but their first duty is to be homemakers. -- Strongly agree
  50. Multinational companies are unethically exploiting the plant genetic resources of developing countries. -- Strongly disagree
  51. Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity. -- Strongly agree

  52. Astrology accurately explains many things. -- Strongly disagree
  53. You cannot be moral without being religious. -- Strongly agree
  54. Charity is better than social security as a means of helping the genuinely disadvantaged. -- Strongly agree
  55. Some people are naturally unlucky. -- Strongly disagree
  56. It is important that my child's school instills religious values. -- Strongly agree

  57. Sex outside marriage is usually immoral. -- Strongly agree
  58. A same sex couple in a stable, loving relationship should not be excluded from the possibility of child adoption. -- Strongly disagree
  59. Pornography, depicting consenting adults, should be legal for the adult population. -- Strongly disagree
  60. What goes on in a private bedroom between consenting adults is no business of the state. -- Strongly disagree
  61. No one can feel naturally homosexual. -- Strongly agree
  62. These days openness about sex has gone too far. -- Strongly agree

Edited by RAZD, : added

Edited by RAZD, : added WOC2


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Percy, posted 02-16-2016 9:23 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 140 of 153 (778211)
02-18-2016 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
02-17-2016 5:03 PM


Re: Testing the Test
That's what I'm talking about. My own scores are at 1 and .1, far from those in the upper right corner.

I don't believe it is possible to answer the questions Percy selected in a way consistent with what Ted Cruz says and still get a (1, 0.1). Your claim is that you are just like the Republican candidates and thus the test is wrong. I'm saying that such a thing is impossible. The Republican candidates are not even all alike.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 02-17-2016 5:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 02-18-2016 12:42 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26702
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 141 of 153 (778224)
02-18-2016 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by NoNukes
02-18-2016 10:36 AM


Re: Testing the Test
What you are saying is so absurd I haven't a clue where you are getting it. I'll try one more time to explain it.

That's what I'm talking about. My own scores are at 1 and .1, far from those in the upper right corner.

I don't believe it is possible to answer the questions Percy selected in a way consistent with what Ted Cruz says and still get a (1, 0.1).

OF COURSE NOT. What an absurd idea. Why would you think I meant anything like that?

Your claim is that you are just like the Republican candidates and thus the test is wrong.

NO THAT IS NOT MY CLAIM. My "claim" was, which wasn't a "claim" anyway, is that I'd have expected to score much closer to them than I did because I thought I shared most of their views. BUT THAT DOESN'T CALL THE TEST INTO QUESTION, it only calls into question the guesses as to where they would have scored by whoever made up the test.

The conclusion would be that in reality THEY WOULD HAVE SCORED CLOSER TO THE SCORES I GOT, not the other way around. And if anything calls the test into question that does.

I'm saying that such a thing is impossible. The Republican candidates are not even all alike.

OF COURSE THEY AREN'T BUT IF THE TEST MAKERS GUESSED AT THOSE SCORES FOR THEM rather than Percy's having produced them from his test of the test, then SOMEBODY thinks they reflect their views.

Didn't YOU say that you think Cruz's score in the upper right hand corner is probably accurate for him? No matter who put it there or guessed it there or whatever? You guessed it would be a pretty accurate reflection of his views and how he would score on the test? Didn't you say that?

That being the case, and since I would expect to have scored much closer to Cruz and the other Republicans than is reflected on the chart, which some consider to be a good guess at their true positions, doesn't that show that the guesses must be wrong whoever made them? Whether the test inventors put them there or Percy did and you agreed at least about where Cruz's was placed?

Unless you see the truth of what I am saying here PLEASE DO NOT ANSWER. I'm tired of getting an ulcer from your weird ways of misconstruing my posts.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2016 10:36 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2016 1:12 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2016 1:14 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 144 by Percy, posted 02-18-2016 1:27 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 142 of 153 (778229)
02-18-2016 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
02-18-2016 12:42 PM


Re: Testing the Test
Didn't YOU say that you think Cruz's score in the upper right hand corner is probably accurate for him? No matter who put it there or guessed it there or whatever? You guessed it would be a pretty accurate reflection of his views and how he would score on the test?

I said two things. I first said that the answers Percy gave probably did reflect Cruz very well and that his score was probably correct. However I also suggested that those answers might not do a good job of indicating anything and that they likely don't explain why Hilary was plotted where she was.

In any event, what I am challenging is your expectation to come up just like Cruz, without giving answers that reflect Cruz's stated positions and obvious tendencies. See below:

Faith writes:

I would just have expected to line up more with, say, Cruz, and I didn't.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 02-18-2016 12:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 143 of 153 (778230)
02-18-2016 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
02-18-2016 12:42 PM


Re: Testing the Test
Unless you see the truth of what I am saying here PLEASE DO NOT ANSWER. I'm tired of getting an ulcer from your weird ways of misconstruing my posts.

I'm surely not going to respect that request.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 02-18-2016 12:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16296
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 144 of 153 (778234)
02-18-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
02-18-2016 12:42 PM


Re: Testing the Test
Faith writes:

OF COURSE THEY AREN'T BUT IF THE TEST MAKERS GUESSED AT THOSE SCORES FOR THEM rather than Percy's having produced them from his test of the test,...

The chart comes from the test's website, RAZD included it one of his posts, too: https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016

Without commenting on the test's validity or accuracy, I think the website's creators have skewed all the candidates results upward and to the right. It you read the text on the page, they even challenge Bernie Sanders credentials as politically left and Libertarian. My guess is that they never tried to approximate how the various candidates would have answered their test questions, but that they just plopped the candidates down on their chart where they felt they belonged.

Or to put it another way, when one is to the left of Karl Marx and more Libertarian than Howard Stern, everyone looks conservative.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo: "enough" => "another"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 02-18-2016 12:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 02-18-2016 1:34 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26702
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 153 (778235)
02-18-2016 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Percy
02-18-2016 1:27 PM


Re: Testing the Test
The chart comes from the test's website, RAZD included it one of his posts, too: https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016

Without commenting on the test's validity or accuracy, I think the website's creators have skewed all the candidates results upward and to the right. It you read the text on the page, they even challenge Bernie Sanders credentials as politically left and Libertarian. My guess is that they never tried to approximate how the various candidates would have answered their test questions, but that they just plopped the candidates down on their chart where they felt they belonged.

Or to put it enough way, when one is to the left of Karl Marx and more Libertarian than Howard Stern, everyone looks conservative.

Thank you very much. That is what I thought and I don't know why NoNukes keeps imputing the scores on the chart to you, or questioning why I think those scores imputed to the Republicans must be wrong because I would expect to have scored closer to them than I did.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Percy, posted 02-18-2016 1:27 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2016 2:17 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 146 of 153 (778237)
02-18-2016 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
02-18-2016 1:34 PM


Re: Testing the Test
I don't know why NoNukes keeps imputing the scores on the chart to you

I did not impute the scores to Percy. Percy is only responsible for posting the chart and of course the example questions and reported score associated with them. I don't believe I said anything different from that.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 02-18-2016 1:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 02-18-2016 2:22 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26702
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 147 of 153 (778238)
02-18-2016 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by NoNukes
02-18-2016 2:17 PM


Re: Testing the Test
OK and I apologized many posts ago if I had misunderstood you on that. But the main point is that if the test makers made up those scores for the Republicans then their guess was wrong as shown by my not scoring anywhere near them -- because I know my beliefs are compatible with many of them and at least Cruz's.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2016 2:17 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by NoNukes, posted 02-18-2016 2:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 148 of 153 (778241)
02-18-2016 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Faith
02-18-2016 2:22 PM


Re: Testing the Test
because I know my beliefs are compatible with many of them and at least Cruz's.

So you keep saying. I think Cruz has been placed firmly in the correct quadrant, although his distance from the origin seems exaggerated. I also believe that the answers to the questions Percy posted are a reasonable approximation of Cruz. Cruz could never achieve your score on that test.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 02-18-2016 2:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1356
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 149 of 153 (778243)
02-18-2016 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
02-17-2016 1:24 PM


Re: Testing the Test
I wouldn't know where to begin to sort it out but I think you're right that there's something very wrong with their definitions. I suspect they lean Left and have the usual distorted view of the Right.

The way they define left and right is not particularly strange or unorthodox, they just seem so from an American perspective. Defining the left/right divide in primarily economic terms is fairly standard in the study of politics in Europe (it gets confusing, of course, since 'far right' is agreed by convention to mean racist nationalism, which in some instances is not very economically right at all).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 02-17-2016 1:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 02-18-2016 3:24 PM caffeine has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26702
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 150 of 153 (778245)
02-18-2016 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by caffeine
02-18-2016 2:50 PM


Re: Testing the Test
The way they define left and right is not particularly strange or unorthodox, they just seem so from an American perspective.

Mostly from the conservative side I'm sure.

Defining the left/right divide in primarily economic terms is fairly standard in the study of politics in Europe

Meaning Marxist terms.

(it gets confusing, of course, since 'far right' is agreed by convention to mean racist nationalism, which in some instances is not very economically right at all).

Agreed by LIBERAL convention I would say, in other words by the procrustean and oppressive standards of political correctness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by caffeine, posted 02-18-2016 2:50 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by caffeine, posted 02-20-2016 5:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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