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Author Topic:   Political Identity Crisis
Tal
Member (Idle past 5667 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 46 of 153 (281995)
01-27-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by crashfrog
01-27-2006 1:17 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
quote:
So, yeah. That's what's causing Americans to suffer ill effects from those things - a lack of adequate health care.
This doesn't make any sense. If they ate less and moved more they wouldn't suffer from the effects in the first place. The coverage of health care would be a moot point if they ate right and excercised. That is like saying lack of health care causes Americans to die from the effects of Aids, as they do not die from aids itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 1:17 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 1:57 PM Tal has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 47 of 153 (281996)
01-27-2006 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tal
01-27-2006 1:51 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
This doesn't make any sense. If they ate less and moved more they wouldn't suffer from the effects in the first place.
There are cultures that eat worse than Americans and cultures that excercise less; yet they don't have nearly the problems that we do.
Certainly, lifestyle is a fair bit of the problem. Doctors help their patients develop healthy lifestyles. But the vast majority of this "Americans are fat and lazy" meme is an attempt by the right to shift the burden of worsening American health from the people actually responsible to the victims themselves.
That is like saying lack of health care causes Americans to die from the effects of Aids, as they do not die from aids itself.
Nobody does die from AIDS. You die from an opportunistic infection caused by immunodeficiency.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tal, posted 01-27-2006 1:51 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Tal, posted 01-27-2006 2:59 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 49 by randman, posted 01-27-2006 5:05 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5667 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 48 of 153 (282010)
01-27-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
01-27-2006 1:57 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
There are cultures that eat worse than Americans and cultures that excercise less; yet they don't have nearly the problems that we do
Such as?
Certainly, lifestyle is a fair bit of the problem. Doctors help their patients develop healthy lifestyles. But the vast majority of this "Americans are fat and lazy" meme is an attempt by the right to shift the burden of worsening American health from the people actually responsible to the victims themselves.
Yes. I believe in personal responsibility.
That is like saying lack of health care causes Americans to die from the effects of Aids, as they do not die from aids itself.
Nobody does die from AIDS. You die from an opportunistic infection caused by immunodeficiency
That's what I said.

"Damn. I could build a nuclear bomb, given the fissionable material, but I can't tame my computer." (1VB)Jerome - French Rocket Scientist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 1:57 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 7:22 PM Tal has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 49 of 153 (282032)
01-27-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
01-27-2006 1:57 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
But the vast majority of this "Americans are fat and lazy" meme is an attempt by the right to shift the burden of worsening American health from the people actually responsible to the victims themselves.
Victims? Good grief man. Now, overweight people are victims of the religious and extreme right, eh? Those Repukies just stuffing food down everyone's throat; denying them the right to walk around and exercise and such....you know it's true cuz crash seys so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 1:57 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by nator, posted 01-27-2006 10:22 PM randman has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 50 of 153 (282044)
01-27-2006 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tal
01-27-2006 2:59 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
Such as?
Have you ever heard of France? For god's sake they smoke there, too. Like chimneys. If anybody should be matching America pound for pound and heart attack for heart attack, it should be the French, with their croissants and fois gras and creme broules.
Yes. I believe in personal responsibility.
I believe in personal responsibility. What you believe in is some kind of sick lassez-faire moralist abdication - the only people responsible for bad things happening is the people to whom they happen.
As though blame was important in the first place. Seems to me the issue is what we should do about it, not who is at fault for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tal, posted 01-27-2006 2:59 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by randman, posted 01-28-2006 2:56 AM crashfrog has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 51 of 153 (282071)
01-27-2006 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by randman
01-27-2006 5:05 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
quote:
Now, overweight people are victims of the religious and extreme right, eh? Those Repukies just stuffing food down everyone's throat; denying them the right to walk around and exercise and such....you know it's true cuz crash seys so.
Who runs/and supports the auto/petroleum industries, which have turned this country into a population of drivers insead of walkers or bikers? That's right; Republicans!
As a consequence, most of our city and town planning for the last 60 years is designed around suburban neighborhoods where you have to have automobiles instead of town centers where businesses and residential areas are mixed so you actually can walk to the market.
Who gives tax breaks to large corporations like Wal-Mart, General Mills, Con-Agra, Pilsbury, and all of the other companies which produce and promote and sell high-calorie, high fat, high sugar, high sodium, highly processed, full-of-preservatives, low nutrient convenience foods?
Why do we need convenience foods? Because middle class american families need both parents, and in many cases, the teenaged kids, to work to make ends meet these days, let alone be able to afford to send the kids to college. Real wages for the middle and lower classes have stagnated or dropped in the last 5-8 years, while the cost of living has gone up and up.
Record profits this year for oil industry executives, though, and the richest Americans saw their wealth increase by over 50%!
So, because both parents need to work to pay the bills, there is less time for people to prepare healthy meals, so they just swing through the drive through or call for pizza, or make some Hamburger Helper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 01-27-2006 5:05 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by randman, posted 01-28-2006 3:00 AM nator has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 52 of 153 (282099)
01-28-2006 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by crashfrog
01-27-2006 7:22 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
Crash, you think the French only became healthier due to socialism? You are way off the deep end here. The French smoke, yea, but they eat better quality food and walk more. Plus, there is probably a genetic component to heart disease that the French lack generally. The automobile and developing towns where everyone drives is a far more significant factor than differences in the health care systems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 7:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Silent H, posted 01-28-2006 5:51 AM randman has not replied
 Message 55 by Tusko, posted 01-28-2006 6:04 AM randman has not replied
 Message 56 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 9:20 AM randman has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 53 of 153 (282100)
01-28-2006 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by nator
01-27-2006 10:22 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
My goodness shraf. You ever consider that during this time our society went through the changes you deplore that liberals ran the government. Liberals ran the government for 40 years or so, and they gave the tax breaks to large corporations. They favored large corporations, especially if they were unionized such as auto makers, and not small business people, who really are the backbone of job creation and more likely to be conservative Republicans.
Let me give you an example. Take the coal companies. Ever wonder why West Virginia was dominated so long by both the coal companies and democrats?
You think the democrats were against the auto makers with all their union employees? What party was in power, who controlled Congress specifically, when America went on the suburbia spree?
This message has been edited by randman, 01-28-2006 03:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by nator, posted 01-27-2006 10:22 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by nator, posted 01-28-2006 12:53 PM randman has not replied
 Message 78 by Lithodid-Man, posted 01-29-2006 4:06 AM randman has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 54 of 153 (282111)
01-28-2006 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by randman
01-28-2006 2:56 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
you think the French only became healthier due to socialism? You are way off the deep end here. The French smoke, yea, but they eat better quality food and walk more.
Europeans do tend to walk or bike more, and they may (on average) eat slightly less food. That said, they hardly eat better quality food. The food in Europe is essentially the same thing, if not worse. You have much fewer options for "health" food as you do in the US, and much of it is fried just the same as in the US. In fact, my own experiences are that they generally eat "junk" food more often. Candy, grease, smoke, and alcohol are ever present.
Although genetics could be an issue, I'm not sure why it is easy to discount the forms of healthcare they enjoy, as well as the different lifestyles they enjoy under more socialist systems.
Stress leads to a lot of health problems, and there is palpably less stress in European lifestyles than in the US. If you are in a bad position financially in the US, there is much more to worry about than in the same position in most European communities. There is much more emphasis on success and work, and less on enjoying one's life or family (except in materialist fashion) in the US.
This isn't very scientific or anything but it would seem to me less stress, and better access to healthcare goes a lot further in explaining differences in health, than that they eat better food. By the way frites ("french" fries) seem more common here than in the US, and when you are generally topping a large sack (their small is larger than US large) of them with mayo AND salt... yeah, its hard to say better food.
Not to undercut that diet and exercise is important.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by randman, posted 01-28-2006 2:56 AM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 01-28-2006 1:13 PM Silent H has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 55 of 153 (282112)
01-28-2006 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by randman
01-28-2006 2:56 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
I was amused by your suggestion that the French, as a nation, might have a genetic resistance to coronary disease. As far as I'm aware, there has been too much inter-national miscegenation to be able to permit genetic differentiation by country.
I could be wrong.
[spelling]
This message has been edited by Tusko, 28-Jan-2006 11:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by randman, posted 01-28-2006 2:56 AM randman has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 56 of 153 (282127)
01-28-2006 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by randman
01-28-2006 2:56 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
Plus, there is probably a genetic component to heart disease that the French lack generally.
Boy, you'll just make up any old thing to avoid being proven wrong, won't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by randman, posted 01-28-2006 2:56 AM randman has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 57 of 153 (282146)
01-28-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by randman
01-28-2006 3:00 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
Reagan and Bush Sr. were liberals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by randman, posted 01-28-2006 3:00 AM randman has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 58 of 153 (282152)
01-28-2006 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Silent H
01-28-2006 5:51 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
quote:
That said, they hardly eat better quality food. The food in Europe is essentially the same thing, if not worse.
Actually, that's not really true. There is a great deal greater availability of unprocessed, "real" food in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, and Swizerland, for example, compared to what is available in the US.
You can buy Prosciutto di Parma at highway rest stops in Italy, find artisan cheeses in every French town, and the snackbar in the Shell stations on the highways in Portugal have a barista pulling shots and you can buy a handmade sandwich or pastry.
There have always been great traditions of going to the market every day, many of the most important traditions in those countries are foods, and they are revered by the people and protected by the government. And it's also considered normal for people to actually cook.
quote:
You have much fewer options for "health" food as you do in the US, and much of it is fried just the same as in the US.
Just because food is fried doesn't mean it's unhealthy.
Vegetable, olive oil, and whole grain consumption is much higher in Europe compared the the US, especially in Mediterranean countries.
What Americans eat a lot of compared to Europeans, and is unhealthy, is highly processed, calorie-dense and nutrient-poor convenience foods.
quote:
In fact, my own experiences are that they generally eat "junk" food more often. Candy, grease, smoke, and alcohol are ever present.
But, since they eat more good stuff, especially red wine, they have more protection. Candy and grease are not inherently harmful. The French in particular are very adamant about not having chemicals or artificial things in their food.
I've also read some interesting studies in which it was claimed, with some support, that Americans also have more stress, guilt, and anxiety about food; while the French view food as a pleasure to be enjoyed, Americans view food as something that will potentially make you ill. The old view of something that is too pleasurable being "sinful".
As we know, constant generalized anxiety is more and more considered to be a major contributing factor to disease.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-28-2006 01:15 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Silent H, posted 01-28-2006 5:51 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-28-2006 1:47 PM nator has replied
 Message 79 by Silent H, posted 01-29-2006 4:40 AM nator has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 59 of 153 (282162)
01-28-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by nator
01-28-2006 1:13 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
that's it. i'm moving to france.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 01-28-2006 1:13 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 1:50 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 62 by nator, posted 01-28-2006 2:55 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 60 of 153 (282165)
01-28-2006 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by macaroniandcheese
01-28-2006 1:47 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
that's it. i'm moving to france.
Get used to warm sodas. They'r pathologically opposed to ice in drinks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-28-2006 1:47 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-28-2006 1:51 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 63 by nator, posted 01-28-2006 2:55 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 67 by Parasomnium, posted 01-28-2006 4:39 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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