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Author Topic:   Political Identity Crisis
nator
Member (Idle past 2024 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 76 of 153 (282236)
01-28-2006 6:40 PM


Sometimes,
this place is really, really funny.

If the rest of the people here weren't paranoid, crazy, creepy, or had sticks up their butts, it would be a lit like my workplace.


    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18257
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 77 of 153 (282258)
01-28-2006 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
01-26-2006 11:47 PM


I'll take extreme over average any day
I usually come out very near the center on most of these things

It has been my experience that very few people report being badly out of bounds on their beliefs (although this should be possible given the few number of questions and the types of questions used) and that few people report being extreme authoritatian-conservatives, thus reported results tend to show a liberal libertarian bias ...

... or thinking people have a more liberal libertarian bias (to use your logic)

But hey, maybe I am the political center.

So? Does being at the IQ "center" mean you are better than someone with a high IQ, that your position is more rational? Do people strive to be average? Do they want their children to be average?

We know that the political spectrum is littered with people who don't really think about their politics, or else there would be more public outrage about things like spying on civilians than there ever was about a stain on a blue dress. Being half way between informed and ignorant would not be my choice.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
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Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 78 of 153 (282274)
01-29-2006 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by randman
01-28-2006 3:00 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
Randman,

You claim:

quote:
Liberals ran the government for 40 years or so

Please provide details. I searched for your statement on Google and the first hit was the NFRW (National Federation of Republican Women) website. As for the executive branch of the government (assuming you are referring to the period prior to our current president) since 1960 we have had a total of 20 years of Democrats and 20 years of Republicans. In that same time period we had a nice back and forth adding up to 50% of Senate control each by Dems and Republicans. Democrats did dominate the House for 35 of those years. So what 40 year period did "Liberals" control the government? Or is that just another easy to remember piece of propaganda that is easier to say than actually looking up a fact or reading original sources on something? 'Tis you style Rand.

And since I am on a soapbox (admittedly of my own creation), I am sick and tired of the right constantly taking credit/avoiding blame on the issues based on who is in power. Clinton's budget surplus is because of Reagan's policies, the current deficit is because of Clinton's policies. On and on. My brother-in-law is a staunch Republican, so I get to hear this over and over again. Everything good in the last century is due to Republican rule, everything bad is Democrat. Every scandal involving Republican is liberal media bias, every scandal with Democrats deserves a multi-million dollar investigation. Now with the Abramoff confessions we are finding out that these moral leaders of our country are dealing with petty thugs to get their way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by randman, posted 01-28-2006 3:00 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3201 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 79 of 153 (282275)
01-29-2006 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by nator
01-28-2006 1:13 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
I'm not sure if people are eating as much of the unprocessed foods, despite their availability, in such great numbers that it would make a difference statistically. While local grocer shopping may have been popular in the past, chain food stores are essentially the norm now, with local grocers being more like convenience stores.

Cheeses are definitely better, and one can get what appears to be fresher fruit in open air markets.

I am of course not married to this, and am open to any evidence. I freely admit my experiences may be skewed by living in urban areas (in the US) where health food stores abound as a trend. But I will tell you one thing, you sure as hell can get fresh fish all over the place, especially in the benelux/scandinavian areas. Frankly I don't see how people don't die of food poisoning from eating fish as "fresh" and raw as they do.

Vegetable, olive oil, and whole grain consumption is much higher in Europe compared the the US, especially in Mediterranean countries.

I believe you've told me this before, and I forget exactly how this works. What is the most healthy oil(s) to cook in? And then what is the difference between commonly used oils in europe v us? When I worked food service years ago we always used vegetable oil for cooking. I can't remember which kind though.

It amused me to find that people here have home deep friers like it is the most common thing to have a miniature one of those tubs you see at McDs in your own kitchen.

But, since they eat more good stuff, especially red wine, they have more protection.

Actually I was wondering about that. Do you know if port offers the same protections? Especially tawny or ruby port?

constant generalized anxiety is more and more considered to be a major contributing factor to disease.

I guess that's what I was trying to go for anyway. Regardless of what they eat, they seem to have less stress about life in general as they live it in a different way... less "sinful" feelings, including guilt about doing nothing and just relaxing. And yeah, not so much guilt when they glob the mayo on a big sack of frites. That's what they want damnit!


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 01-28-2006 1:13 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 9:31 AM Silent H has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 2024 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 80 of 153 (282281)
01-29-2006 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Silent H
01-29-2006 4:40 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
quote:
I'm not sure if people are eating as much of the unprocessed foods, despite their availability, in such great numbers that it would make a difference statistically.

This is interesting to me. Do you have any documentation or support for this to send me to so I can read more? It is my understanding that while highly processed convenience foods are becoming more available in Europe, it is still the norm for people to mostly eat "real food".

quote:
While local grocer shopping may have been popular in the past, chain food stores are essentially the norm now, with local grocers being more like convenience stores.

Well, I didn't see any chain grocery stores in Porto, Lisbon, or any of the smaller cities we visited in Portugal when I was there a few years ago. I was in several major cities and also small villages in France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Spain, and Great Britain about 15 years ago, and the only place that had prominent chain grocery stores was England.

Maybe things have radically changed in Europe in the past 15 years, because that's certainly enough time for such change to happen, but I am doubtful.

quote:
Cheeses are definitely better, and one can get what appears to be fresher fruit in open air markets.

I am of course not married to this, and am open to any evidence. I freely admit my experiences may be skewed by living in urban areas (in the US) where health food stores abound as a trend.


Sure.

quote:
But I will tell you one thing, you sure as hell can get fresh fish all over the place, especially in the benelux/scandinavian areas. Frankly I don't see how people don't die of food poisoning from eating fish as "fresh" and raw as they do.

Are you saying that people eat raw fish that is not fresh, as in they eat spoiled raw fish? I am a little confused by your statement, sorry.

quote:
I believe you've told me this before, and I forget exactly how this works. What is the most healthy oil(s) to cook in?

There are many healthful oils for cooking, and olive oil is one of the best. Apparently (unhydrogenated) palm oil is good for you too. But basically you want to stick with monounsaturates for the most part, although some saturated fats like mammal body fat (like bacon fat) and butter occasionally are not that big of a deal in the diet. It's the hydrogenated "tinkered-with" fats that seem to be the really unhealthy ones. So, stick with "real" food, basically.

quote:
And then what is the difference between commonly used oils in europe v us? When I worked food service years ago we always used vegetable oil for cooking. I can't remember which kind though.

They use a lot of olive oil in the mediterranian. A lot. They also cook with lard now and then, especially in Germany and in parts of France, and everybody has traditional dishes which use rendered the fat from some kind of cured pork product. Grapeseed oil is commonly used, especially in France, when they want a neutral oil.

In the US, people commonly use shortening, margarine, and plain vegetable oil (usually soybean), and also corn oil, so your experience is typical. Peanut oil is cheap so restaurants like using it, but with all the problems with peanut alergies, many have stopped.

When I'm at work it's fairly common for guests to ask if a particular olive oil they like comes in a smaller bottle (smaller than 500ml), because they think it's too much for them to go through. I then ask them if they think they will use it up in a year (because that's how long it will keep), and they say that no, they didn't think so. Contrast this with the following story...

Our CEO tells a story of a conversation he had with an older Italian couple as they all were in attendance during the milling and pressing of the olive oil at their local frantoio. He asked them how much olive oil they went through in a year, and they said that they didn't cook as much as they used to, because the children were all grown and moved away, so they consumed a mere 100 liters a year or so.

quote:
It amused me to find that people here have home deep friers like it is the most common thing to have a miniature one of those tubs you see at McDs in your own kitchen.

Properly deep-fried food has no more fat than food sauteed in a skillet, actually, and in some cases has less. If the temperature is correct (not too low) then the coating doesn't absorb much oil. This one surprised me when I learned it a couple of years ago.

One of these days, I'm going to buy myself one of those home deep fryers. So much more economical and than using a big pot, and you don't have to keep fiddling with the heat to keep the temp steady as they have their own thermostat.

quote:
Actually I was wondering about that. Do you know if port offers the same protections? Especially tawny or ruby port?

Ahh, port. I have a little bit left of a wonderful LBV and a 30 year old tawny I brought back from Portugal. I would imagine that the ruby would have the benefit, because it's the antioxidants, specifically one called resveratol and another called saponin, in the red grape skins that confer the goodies to the wine. A glass or two a day is good.

quote:
I guess that's what I was trying to go for anyway. Regardless of what they eat, they seem to have less stress about life in general as they live it in a different way... less "sinful" feelings, including guilt about doing nothing and just relaxing. And yeah, not so much guilt when they glob the mayo on a big sack of frites. That's what they want damnit!

I also think there's a lot of "rebellion" eating in the US. Like, you said, "That's what they want damnit!", except that in Europe, there isn't that self-judging thing about enjoying "bad for you" food. They don't have to justify anything to themselves. It's just not part of the thinking process surrounding food. Also, since they are generally raised on much more high-quality food and home cooking, their palates and tastes are much more homed to good flavor.

Here, people try to "eat right" and then binge on junk when they can't take the boring eating anymore. The reason "eating right" is so boring, is because Americans are so divorced from the kitchen that they don't know how to prepare simple dishes from fresh ingredients, and therefore resort to frozen meals and health food store stuff, which is at times underseasoned and blah.

I think people are cooking more in America, though, and are using better ingredients. The popularity of people like Emeril and Rachel Ray are great for helping people get back into the kitchen, and you can find some pretty good stuff in regular grocery stores now that you couldn't just a few years ago. Farmer's markets are becoming really popular, too

But we have a long way to go, that's for sure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Silent H, posted 01-29-2006 4:40 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3201 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 81 of 153 (282323)
01-29-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by nator
01-29-2006 9:31 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
This is interesting to me. Do you have any documentation or support for this to send me to so I can read more?

No I have no documentation, I was hoping you could supply some. I'm simply speaking from anecdotal experience. The stores carry the same kind of junk food as in the US, as well as the restaurants, and that seems to be what people generally buy and eat.

Maybe things have radically changed in Europe in the past 15 years, because that's certainly enough time for such change to happen, but I am doubtful.

I can't speak for every nation, especially the likes of portugal and spain. However change in many nations here have been dramatic over the last 5-10 years (mainly the last 5). When I first visited Netherlands the chain stores were just getting started and there was discussion of their threat to the smaller grocers, now they are set and growing. Albert Hein essentially has a monopoly in A'dam central.

Maybe Parsomnium has more lifetime experience on this, or someone else in mainland Europe?

Are you saying that people eat raw fish that is not fresh, as in they eat spoiled raw fish?

I'm just saying that it doesn't look healthy. These quaint fish sellers might pull a fish from a bucket with what looks like filthy water (containing other whole dead fish), then chop chop chop, sprinkle onions and there you go. Brrrrrr.

Ahh, port.

I'm not a huge alcohol drinker (particularly because of a digestive condition), though I used to love harder drinks over beer and wine. My gf got me into drinking red wine (I cannot stand white) and I thought it was great to hear there were benefits. Within this last year I discovered port and I couldn't be happier. Its like a cross between wine and whisky to me. If it has health benefits, that'll be some sweet medicine.

I prefer tawny though.

Also, since they are generally raised on much more high-quality food and home cooking, their palates and tastes are much more homed to good flavor.

Heheheh... not in the Netherlands though. Dutch cuisine is notoriously bland.

Here, people try to "eat right" and then binge on junk when they can't take the boring eating anymore. The reason "eating right" is so boring, is because Americans are so divorced from the kitchen that they don't know how to prepare simple dishes from fresh ingredients, and therefore resort to frozen meals and health food store stuff, which is at times underseasoned and blah.

I agree... though I also believe lifestyle stress outside just eating is also a contributing factor.

Thanks for all the info.


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2280 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 82 of 153 (282328)
01-29-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Lithodid-Man
01-29-2006 4:06 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
Most of the changes under discussion occurred between 1932-1972, a time when liberal democrats dominated Congress and pushed through many government programs and policies. Often, even so-called "right wingers" like Nixon were more centrist, adopting many "liberal" causes and methods such as wage and price controls, instituting the EPA, etc,....

The few conservative voices, like Governor Reagan, were viewed as an anamoly, or they were connected to race politics, as Wallace was when won a few states on a third party platform. The Left was actually beyond "liberal" at some points (Weathermen in late 60s and 70s, Socialists/Communists in the 30s and 40s).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Lithodid-Man, posted 01-29-2006 4:06 AM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2280 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 83 of 153 (282329)
01-29-2006 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by RAZD
01-28-2006 9:41 PM


Re: I'll take extreme over average any day
Seems like I hit a nerve....but regardless, you miss the point. I don't really think of myself as the center. That was not something I claimed as point of pride because frankly I don't think one's position relative to the rest of the population means all that much, in terms of truth.

But go ahead and attack those windmills all day long if you wish...


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18257
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 84 of 153 (282334)
01-29-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by randman
01-29-2006 2:52 PM


Re: I'll take extreme over average any day
Seems like I hit a nerve....

Lol. The one on my funnybone.

frankly I don't think one's position relative to the rest of the population means all that much, in terms of truth.

Can I quote you the next time your hackles are raised?


www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1157&m=1>Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 77 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 85 of 153 (282351)
01-29-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Silent H
01-29-2006 2:09 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
holmes writes:

The stores carry the same kind of junk food as in the US, as well as the restaurants, and that seems to be what people generally buy and eat.

It does depend on which restaurant you visit, of course. If you are prepared to spend a bit more, you can have really excellent food in the Netherlands. It was mainly French cuisine in those more expensive restaurants, but the last decade or so, the chefs have sort of come into their own, and for the better, I'd say. Not that French cuisine is bad or anything, but there's more.

holmes writes:

change in many nations here have been dramatic over the last 5-10 years (mainly the last 5). When I first visited Netherlands the chain stores were just getting started and there was discussion of their threat to the smaller grocers, now they are set and growing. Albert Hein essentially has a monopoly in A'dam central.

Maybe Parsomnium has more lifetime experience on this, or someone else in mainland Europe?

You're right, Holmes, that's what has been going on. There are still small shops with specialty foods, like dairy and cheese shops, greengrocers, fish mongers, bakers, butchers, et cetera, but Albert Heijn and company are taking over. Albert Heijn, by the way, has long been regarded as the quality supermarket, where they have a large assortment of food products and friendly, intelligent people at the cash register. But things are changing faster than ever, with this price-war between the supermarket chains going on.

These quaint fish sellers might pull a fish from a bucket with what looks like filthy water (containing other whole dead fish), then chop chop chop, sprinkle onions and there you go. Brrrrrr.

I can assure you that, although it may look horrendous, it's actually quite tasty, and very fresh. If it weren't, these fish mongers would be out of business very quickly.

The way herring is eaten on the street in Amsterdam has actually been used in a promotion clip against xenophobia. You see a couple of typical Dutch blokes eating herring the Dutch way, i.e. holding it by the tail and lowering it into their mouths to bite off chuncks. The herrings are smothered in sause and onion sprinkle, which sticks to the corner of their mouths and moustaches. What are they talking about? Foreigners and their filthy eating habits...

Dutch cuisine is notoriously bland.

Well, you'll hear no disagreement from me about that. That's why I prefer Italian food.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Silent H, posted 01-29-2006 2:09 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Silent H, posted 01-30-2006 5:34 AM Parasomnium has responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 153 (282395)
01-29-2006 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by nator
01-29-2006 9:31 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
Here, people try to "eat right" and then binge on junk when they can't take the boring eating anymore. The reason "eating right" is so boring, is because Americans are so divorced from the kitchen that they don't know how to prepare simple dishes from fresh ingredients, and therefore resort to frozen meals and health food store stuff, which is at times underseasoned and blah.

I don't understand this. What difference does it make what we eat?

I just eat whatever's available.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 9:31 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by nator, posted 01-30-2006 6:01 PM robinrohan has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18257
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 87 of 153 (282399)
01-29-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Silent H
01-29-2006 2:09 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
Dutch cuisine is notoriously bland.

There's something worse than English cooking?

I found the Dutch ristaffel (rice table) - a smorgasborg of indonesian cuisine with a dutch accent from the days of trade sailing vessels - most interesting.

... the same kind of junk food as in the US, as well as the restaurants, ...

I was recently in Puerto Rico, and was invited by the local crew to join them for lunch -- "great" I thought, I'd get to sample native cuisine in a native environment ... they went to Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Sigh.

This message has been edited by RAZD, 01*29*2006 09:25 PM


www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1157&m=1>Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

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... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1309 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 88 of 153 (282409)
01-29-2006 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by RAZD
01-29-2006 9:23 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
yeah um. puerto rico. totally modern except for housing and television. my roommate lived there for 11 years.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2006 9:23 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 89 of 153 (282461)
01-30-2006 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by randman
01-29-2006 2:49 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
Rand,

I assume you mean the Senate by Congress, as Repubs dominated the House during that entire time period. My guess is that the "many government programs and policies" you are talking about are the ones instituted that prevented many Americans from literally starving to death in the 30's. The programs that put people to work. I recognize that FDR was leaning a bit to the Socialist camp, but he saved our country (not that I have anything against Socialists, in fact I lean heavily that way myself). But he put our country back to work, led us through WWII, and set up the conditions that allowed for the end of segregation. Liberal - yes, bad -no.

One of the funny things (on an aside) my ultra-right brother (not Repub, way way to the right, he has a poster of McVeigh on his wall bearing the slogan "last American Patriot") likes to talk about is how Democrats (he uses liberals) sold out our country by abandoning the gold standard. First of all when questioned he has no real idea of what it means (kind of like "Zellinger" vs. "Zeilinger", remember Rand?). Second he attributes it to liberals when it was a Republican idea to start with, only adopted by Dems when it was neccessary. I think it is a great idea and conservatives should be proud. But it is funny that it is remembered as a crazy liberal idea. Just my aside.


This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3201 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 90 of 153 (282476)
01-30-2006 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Parasomnium
01-29-2006 5:17 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
But things are changing faster than ever, with this price-war between the supermarket chains going on.

Me and my gf went out looking for competitors within A'dam central and it turned out there no longer were any, AH drove them all out. I've got 3 AHs within a short walking distance, and nothing else for at least a kilometer or two. About the only thing I can be glad about is that they have pretty decent hours for convenience type shopping (which is definitely one of the changes within the last 5 years).

I can assure you that, although it may look horrendous, it's actually quite tasty, and very fresh. If it weren't, these fish mongers would be out of business very quickly.

Well McDs isn't exactly tasty or fresh and they are doing wonders (same for FEBO). But yeah my gf and her dad love that stuff and if people were disgusted or dying the quaint little shopd would close. Its just everytime I go out to get my gf some herring I watch them at work and think... how can this be good?

You see a couple of typical Dutch blokes eating herring the Dutch way, i.e. holding it by the tail and lowering it into their mouths to bite off chuncks. The herrings are smothered in sause and onion sprinkle, which sticks to the corner of their mouths

Yes, there is a question of how long I have to wait after lunch before kissing my gf. On a funny note some friends from the US came in to visit and had no clue about that method of eating. They were walking through the city and saw those shops with their common stand up of a traditionally clad girl eating herring in that fashion, but they didn't quite understand.

We got a big laugh when we found out they thought those signs were of girls eating something quite different. I suppose it doesn't help when one is in A'dam and sees signs of girls doing similar things on different shops.

That's why I prefer Italian food.

Although I generally prefer American style Chinese food, I love the fact that the dutch offer sate sauce everywhere. Its like nowhere except in chinese or thai joints in the US, so when I found it even in the frites shops I was in heaven. Its one of the things that me and my gf missed when we returned to the US for a while.

Then again, it seems many places are changing their sate recipes for some new crappy version.

That said, I do like hutspot (sp?) even if it is bland, and I love suriname food. I never knew of it in the US and could not find it once I was aware of it. Roti is absolutely delicious, and I guess in some ways that could be called "dutch"? Does conquering count?


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Parasomnium, posted 01-29-2006 5:17 PM Parasomnium has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Parasomnium, posted 01-30-2006 7:52 AM Silent H has not yet responded

    
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