iano
Sorry for not answering sooner but your reply did not show up at first. I recorded a reply first from RiVerRat and answered him. Weird software bug I guess.
Anyway here we go.
ssume this to mean that you would not do this to your child. And this is
iano writes:
Whether it is those you listed or the summation of them given by Jesus then answer is the same. I ignore/break them more often than not. I don't see your point
This was a response to a previous statement of yours here.
In your dreams I suspect if he gave full revelation of himself with us in our current state then widespread insanity would follow. For people would have reason to despair. For they cannot live the life demanded by a holy God.
What I was trying to point out is that if you check on the laws that the biblical God is insisting on then of course no one can live the life demanded thereof because in a lot of cases it is wrong to do so.
These ones in particular are immoral in my humble opinion.
Exd 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Exd 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Exd 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exd 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exd 22:3 If the sun be risen upon him, [there shall be] blood [shed] for him; [for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
sidelined writes:
So you are saying that God needed the serpent to tempt Eve into partaking of the fruit which she clearly had not partaken of as per her statement
Do you mean to tell me that God could not know that they would succumb to temptation? That they ate of the tree produces what great detriment to us or God. Why is it a crime to have knowledge of good and evil? Is this not the basis for any type of morality,relative or otherwise,a sense of right and wrong?
The supposed punishment fits the crime in what way? We disobey God and why would this be a problem for him? That he needed to tempt innocent people {who did not yet have a sense of right and wrong} in order for them to consider eating of the fruit which they would not otherwise do
speaks of a problem on the part of God not humans.
sidelined writes:
At this point she has no knowledge of good and evil and is innocent and obeying of the command given to her.She cannot therefore concieve that the serpent is lying to her since this is an evil act. Would you seriously do this to a child of yours? Under any circumstances?
God says, the serpent says. We cannot use the image of a modern day child in order to compare - for a modern day child is born a sinner so one needs to make overly sure that they won't fall into temptation.
*sigh* Fine but this does not answer the question. Let us simply have you tell us that you would do this to Adam and Eve who I assume are innocent correct?
I don't see any mention of Adam and Eves culpability here. You seem to think that God cannot make a free-willed person capable of making a choice.That culpability can never have been theirs. No doubt if they had chosen to obey God then you would accuse the choice as having been rigged in favor of them doing so (well you wouldn't actually - there have been a fall in the first place!)
That is completely incorrect. My point is that after he gave them the right to choose they chose
not to eat and God has a serpent tempt them in order to entrap them. Since it is a given that God {being omnipotent} knew that they would sucuumb one is left to wonder is God's motive for this? Why would he get so angry when he knew what would happen? What,again, is the great horror of the act that inflicts a curse of that magnitude when God himself was completely aware of the outcome? Why give freewill when you yourself are not ready to accept the outcome either way?
iano writes:
Maybe you can think of how to create fully free willed beings without them being able to chose against you? If you could, it would strenghten your position.
sidelined writes:
I would allow them to do as they pleased since after all there is no damage they can do that I cannot undo in the first place if I am limitless in abilty and power.
So here is the edict I would place on them. You are free to do whatever you wish to do as long as it does not interfere with the freewill choice of another human being. This is my only rule and if you do not like it,oh well, deal with it.Screw with my rule and I will make your eyes bubble in their sockets. Any questions? Good! Carry on.
iano writes:
So you have a lot of people with bubbling eye sockets (curious that blindness is the result in your model). They will have chosen against you. Like to try again? Or maybe do as he did and include a plan of redemption from the get go - knowing full well what free-willed (but necessary) choice will lead to.
But again we must ask why God has a problem with the choices we make if he demands that we have free choice in the first place. What is the point of the punishment? To teach them a lesson? To instill fear in them? If you build a machine that has a great likelihood of falling apart but you will not change the designs to make the product more reliable and then as a bonus you toss a wrench into the works and it ends up failing your strict requirements for reliabilty you would blame the machine you made? That is madness.
I will try to get to responding to the rest of your post another day as I am at present pressed for time. Again i am sorry I took so long to respond.
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