should IUD's be considered instruments of murder?

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That's the point of contention. Not that they aren't all forms but that all forms are unavailable when one is removed.

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If abortion is made illegal, only the unsafe ones will be available, and in many cases, even those will not be available.

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Illegalizing abortion as a medical procedure does not force women to give birth because they still have other methods of abortion.

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Dude, it will be illegal.Lots of people will not get abortions for that fact alone, since back alley abortions of all sorts are unsafe.

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I suppose that making abortion illegal would include all forms across the board, unless it only outlawed specific methods. So, I see how it could be perceived as a forced birth. But other methods could easily avoid prosecution and remain available.

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Oh yeah? Like what?

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So that's where the problem is with illegalizing it as a medical procedure. It forces women to rely on another method, not to give birth.

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What if no method is available, or she doesn't want to break the law?If the law says you can't have an abortion, how is that not another way of enforcing birth by law?I have Option A and Option B.All permutations of Option A are illegal.The law therefore dictates that my only option is Option B.The law therefore dictates that I must give birth if I am pregnant, or risk criminal prosecution, since all forms of abortion are illegal.

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Those other methods are worse, so keeping the medical procedure available seems to be beneficial in that aspect.

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So glad you agree.

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Besides, if I don't want to kill an unborn person, then I don't have to. If someone else wants to do that, I don't have a good enough reason to stop them.

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Precisely.

Since both of you have declared an IUD to be an unacceptable form of birth control, I have a couple of questions for you two.1. Do you consider The Pill unacceptable as well? After all, The Pill prevents implantation too (when its first 2 lines of defense--ovulation suppression and cervical mucus enhancement--fail).2. Do you consider IVF murder? After all, most IVF fails. 3-4 blastocytes are used in each attempt. 3 IVF treatments are needed to achieve a pregnancy (on average). That's 11 "dead babies" according to you two. Are women who use IVF therefore murderers? Are IVF specialists murderers just like abortionists?

do you think that if doctor's office abortions become illegal, that self-induced abortions stay legal? do you think that if a woman went to the hospital half dead from a self-induced abortion, they wouldn't jail her as soon as she was healthy enough... if she lived?what the hell is wrong with you that you think binge drinking and throwing yourself down the stairs or gouging out your guts with a coathanger is acceptable and going to the doctor 4 weeks into a pregnancy to get a pill that sloughs the lining of your uterus isn't? what the hell is wrong with you?

as well it should be. they can post pictures of HOMG DEAD BABIES!!!! but real (formerly) live women aren't acceptable?

if abortion becomes illegal, sel-induced abortion becomes illegal, too. avoid prosecution and increase the risk of the death of the woman. and this is exactly why the church supported legalization until it happened. and then someone decided that the precious little babies (tm) were too important to protect women.Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

Therefore, birth is not forced.That's all I cared to say. But I doubt you'll stop bullshitting about forcing birth anyways. Risking criminal prosecution is Option C. You are not forced to take Option B.Having the speed limit at 65 mph does not force me to drive slow.

what I think is none of your business.

You want to have your cake and eat it too.

Well, I can tell that horrible reading comprehension is what the hell is wrong with you.Please quote me on the acceptability of those things.Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

no. i want what's guaranteed by the constitution: protection from unreasonable search and seizure, and by my constitution in florida, a right to privacy. what i do in my life is none of your damn business. why do you feel the need to quiz me about my sexual practices (or lack thereof)? what sick perversion do you suffer from that you need to spy on women to make sure they're acting "responsibly"? why don't you think women are fully human and capable of making their own decisions? the constitution says i'm an adult and a citizen and guaranteed full protection of the law. stay the hell out of my life.

well, clearly somehow those measures are available and should be taken instead of a safe medical procedure.

what you think has been broadcast here for all the world to see. and what they can clearly see is that you think that women are not full adults deserving and possessing rights and that they are not capable of rational decisionmaking and instead need you to determine what activities they should be participating in and what they must be doing with their bodies.

Wow, you're the stupidest bitch I've seen in a while. You're so fucking retarded that you can't even comprehend what I'm saying.And then to tell me that I think something that I don't.Fuck you and piss off.

clearly, i must be stupid. i'm a woman.so. since you don't believe that, why don't you prove i'm wrong. tell me what you do believe.of course, i believe you'll be suspended for your unneccessary outburst.

Its already been posted in this thread.Instead of me repeating myself, why don't you show me where I've said anything that resembles what you said that I said.