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Author Topic:   Society without property?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18335
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 48 of 121 (198744)
04-12-2005 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by coffee_addict
04-12-2005 3:51 PM


The Gap is growing bigger again
19th century England got pretty close to true Capitalism, and it failed miserably. It almost reverted back to the times where there were the haves and the havenots.
kinda reminds me of my situation at safeway. I started out making $4.50 an hour 15 years ago. Now, maxed at $15.66 which is still hardly a decent wage to provide for a family. The CEO's keep making millions of dollars while advocating hiring cheaper ($7.75 labor and slowly promoting them up to $10.00) The haves and the have-nots are growing. I protest that this society is splitting in half and I am in the middle being pushed down or pulled down by those wanting jobs.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18335
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 69 of 121 (198879)
04-13-2005 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by contracycle
04-13-2005 5:48 AM


contra writes:
It is BECUASe society is high tech and specialised, and becuase it has necessarily trained a technically proficient and specialised workforce, that "industrial communism" is not only possible but urgently necessary.
Point blank: What does it mean for the likes of me? The middle class American who is fighting to maintain his $15.66 an hour job that he has earned and deserves? Communism would make a lot of people better off but I am not so sure that I, as a middle class American, would be any better off unless I had a college degree. I am not about to support helping the poor impoverished masses if it means that I must sacrifice my well being in order to do so. That is why the wealthy elite have the American middle class on their side...we want to keep our piece of the pie even if it is unfair to the world. Sorry I am so arrogant...but I don't want to be the class that suffers for the good of the "many".

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 Message 62 by contracycle, posted 04-13-2005 5:48 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by contracycle, posted 04-13-2005 7:57 AM Phat has replied
 Message 72 by sidelined, posted 04-13-2005 8:06 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18335
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 73 of 121 (198903)
04-13-2005 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by sidelined
04-13-2005 8:06 AM


Basically you are seeing the "fleshly" and selfish side of me in this thread. As a Christian, I quite naturally should suffer for the benefit of others. (As should we all) It is easy to suffer if those others are someone close such as your wife and children. It is a bit more difficult yet quite commendable to sacrifice for the good of the people in your city, state, and even nation. (in theory) How can I sacrifice for the benefit of a nameless Tsunami victim? More to the point, how can I justify it? Christian morality suggests it--even demands it. I was simply showing my ugly side in this post...because I get darn tired of working so hard and never getting ahead..(Whatever THAT means! )

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 Message 72 by sidelined, posted 04-13-2005 8:06 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by sidelined, posted 04-14-2005 1:33 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18335
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 74 of 121 (198904)
04-13-2005 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by contracycle
04-13-2005 7:57 AM


Contra writes:
Are you really middle class?
Actually, No. I am working class as you are.
What scares me is if I am to be rewarded for my production, how do I as a 45 year old Diabetic who is half as strong as he was 20 years ago compete with the many strong young Mexicans who would jump at the chance to prove themselves in my job for half the wage?
The only edge that I have is that they have not yet learned English!
(Again, I am speaking from the selfish part of me!)

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18335
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 81 of 121 (199133)
04-14-2005 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by sidelined
04-14-2005 1:33 AM


Quite correct, Old Chap!
Every once in awhile, God has a sense of humor. What better way to put me in my place than to have an atheist tell me how to do it!
Your post was heartfelt and unarguable. Truly a Christian can do all things. (Through Christ Who strengthens us.)
This post shows WHY America is NOT a Christian Nation as is often claimed. Even the Christians (Especially the Christians) would rather be comfortable than co-laborers with Christ. A true Christian nation would in all probability be a socialist/communist one. Some even suggest that the ONLY reason that America was "blessed" with so much wealth was that it was our national mandate BY God to give it all away....which we have failed to do.
And on a personal level, I truly have little cause for complaint. I am still comfortable, after all.
You and I have argued before over a dance without a choreographer.
Our beliefs have been declared to be quite different, and yet, somehow, you have voiced a stronger faith than I possess.
*shakes head* Thank you! I bet when you were a kid that you played nice even when the teacher/parent was not watching!
No wonder you have never needed a choreographer...although I believe that He is delighted with you anyway!

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