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Author | Topic: boasts of Athiests II | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sometimes just observing something can change it. In the physical world, but not the realm of truth.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4705 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
I'll see if I can get this to work.
You might check Here. To see a further example of the difficulty fundamentalist have with levels of abstraction. I am refining my understanding of literalism as a dependency on the abstract models they have of actuality conflated with the actuality itself. lfen Edited by AdminNWR, : fix broken link (inappropriate space removed)
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lfen Member (Idle past 4705 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
In the physical world, but not the realm of truth. You are asserting the existence of Platonic archetypes? Can you point out this realm of truth? How can you establish that is something beyond what you've imagined? lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Nothing to do with Plato, but in order to say what I'm saying I don't have to be asserting that the Realm of Truth actually exists, merely that if it does it is objective and unchanging.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4705 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
That is like saying if the land of the big rock candy mountain exists, then "the jails are made of tin,
And you can walk right out again as soon as you are in". True, but then what has that to do with the price of tea in China? lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
At the simplest level all we are talking about is objective truth versus subjective opinion, pretty ordinary stuff we all talk about all the time, so I don't know why you are making this into some big Problem. I do understand, of course, that the very idea of objective truth is no longer fashionable, since Postmodernism and Moral Relativism took over, but this kind of argument doesn't go anywhere. Maybe Robin will have more to say about it.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4705 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
I don't have to be asserting that the Realm of Truth actually exists, merely that if it does it is objective and unchanging. I do understand, of course, that the very idea of objective truth is no longer fashionable, since Postmodernism and Moral Relativism took over, but this kind of argument doesn't go anywhere. You stated your premise conditionally and thus could assume the Realm of Truth is whatever you wantd it to be IF it existed. I was just pointing out that if we had bacon we could have bacon and eggs, if we had eggs. What or where is this Realm of Truth which IF it exists is unchanging and objective? And if it doesn't exist then what? lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Where did I "state my premise conditionally?"
Honestly I have no idea what you are talking about. You seem to be riding some hobbyhorse of your own.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4705 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
The word "If" is a condition as in
but in order to say what I'm saying I don't have to be asserting that the Realm of Truth actually exists, merely that if it does it is objective and unchanging. "If it exists" is the conditionIf that statement is true you then assert that "it is objective and unchanging". But you didn't assert that it did exist only that if it did it would be such and such. But why? I was pointing out that anyone can make any if statement of that form and assert whatever they like. Since there is no implication of existence then it doesn't matter. If the FSM exists then it's noodly appendages push us against the ground. Well, it doesn't exist so there are no noodly appendages. lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No the "if" is not a "condition" as you are misconstruing it. The objectivity and unchangingness of the Realm of Truth is not dependent on its existing, it's definitional. It doesn't matter whether it exists or not, is the point, the definition of truth is that it is objective and unchanging. I'm simply trying to establish what I MEAN BY truth as opposed to subjective opinion. It ought to be obvious but nothing is obvious around here.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: It seems to me that the problem is that Robin hasn't explained why he holds that subjective views have no truth-value. A statement that has no truth-value is meaningless but we accept personal and subjective statements as having meaning. So on the face of it, Robin's claim is clearly false. Hence, if Robin has a point he needs to explain it.a
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
A statement that has no truth-value is meaningless but we accept personal and subjective statements as having meaning. So on the face of it, Robin's claim is clearly false. Hence, if Robin has a point he needs to explain it.a If by "meaning" we mean a definite idea that can be communicated to another, then of course such statements have meaning.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
If they have meaning, then they have a truth-value. It's not much of a "definite idea" if it can't be true or false.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
If they have meaning, then they have a truth-value. It's not much of a "definite idea" if it can't be true or false. By "truth-value" do you mean, such statements MIGHT be objectively true?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I'd say so. Happiness is subjective, but the statement "I am happy" is objectively true or false.
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