Evolution of Governments

We have seen several different types of governments, and people in the "free world" are fairly convinced that various forms of democracy are preferable to the known forms of totalitarian rule.Where can we go from here to {create\develop\invent} new forms of government?Not just better ways to vote\express opinions but something new?How can you have a universal health care program when there are people who do not want to participate?Enjoy.(coffeehouse I guess)Edited by RAZD, : typos

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

For a starter, we could get rid of the current beauracratic process. Personally, I've given up on democracy. It simply doesn't work with such a bigass ignorant population. But moving on to what I still don't know yet. Well, the people who don't want to participate in a universal health care program are people that have a mansion in every state as their vacation house. But to answer your question, why not present a universal health care program as an option? For people that want more, let them go to private institutions.

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You need to create\develop\invent new territories or population centers free of the encumbrances of history and tradition.I suggest orbiting space colonies and each colony can experiment with different styles of government. This will facilitate replication and a selection process to help promote the fittest system.Besides the expansion of life beyond this planet is a really a good idea since having all of your DNA stuck at the bottom of a gravity well on a rock that has experienced many documented prior catastrophic events is an ill-advised long range strategy

An interesting topic. I would say this has been the great question that has always been aced by socialists and communists. I think everyone would agree that on paper, socialism and communism are great ideals. Everyone treated equally without bias, sure sign me up! Unfortunatley, the last question you posed has always been the problem. It also has to assume that we live in a cooperative society where everyone is okay with their lot in life. But if I spent all this time getting a medical degree but can't enjoy the fruits of my labor, what incentive is there? I could just be a garbage man for the same wage with less responsibility. I could do nothing at all, and the government has to take care of me. So what incentive do I have for doing 'well' for myself if I could just circumvent the system? And does it really elimante class status? Of it course it doesn't. That still exists. It doesn't create the utopian society, rather, you have to already live in a utopian society for it to work effectively.This is how people started dying by the masses in Russia. You simply eliminate the unproductive. If my only incentive is to not have agents come to my house to execute me, I'll choose another form of government if I can. And the proof is in the pudding.... unless of course, clamoring aboard makeshift rafts, risking life and limb, actually somehow bespeaks of a system that actually works. Even China is starting to wise up. Less human trafficking is occuring as a result, and their economy is booming. The cost of living has dramatically improved since they started adopting a free trade market. And one of two things will happen as a result. Either the bottom will drop out because its too fast-- meaning they can't sustain that level without crashing, or, they will be the most powerful nation in the world by the year 2030.As to your first premise... I don't know where else government style could go to. I'm sure there is a system out there that has yet to be introduced. I just can't think of what it is.

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Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

Agreed. Not so fast. People were killed in Russia (and China) for reasons way beyond simply not being productive.And you do not mention there have been sufficiently successful socialist nations (sweden and denmark for example) without such purges.What's more, how does laissez faire capitalist systems deal with the unproductive? Death. That's about it. We've had plenty suffer and die under capitalist systems. Free trade isn't exactly free there is it? Certainly the people are not. It seems to me that political dissidents are likely to leave that country regardless of its economic system. I mean I'd certainly leave a country where I couldn't do or say what I wanted, even if I got a better paycheck and more things were on the shelf for me to buy. We let gov't policy be set by sunday political talkshows. In this way the media raises and discusses hotbutton issues, followed by a vote from the viewing public.We can call it medi-ocracy.

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holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Well, as the board's token anarchist, I would advocate doing away with the coercive authoritarian state altogether. Organization based on voluntary associations: the ultimate democracy.Of course, one cannot simply eliminate the state completely right off the bat. But I would like to see a movement toward massive decentralization and grassroots democracy.

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Where can we go from here to {create\develop\invent} new forms of government?

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So, I would say that we should consider uninventing the government.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

Okay, and political dissent. Neither is any reason to whack millions of people. Well, there is a famous line about Socialism. It goes like this: "In a socialist setting, equality is achieved only in the sense that everyone is equal in his or her misery." Maybe that seems like an exaggeration, but perhaps there is a little bit of truth to that. I know I wouldn't like giving over half of my earnings to the government. If the strong pays for the sick, who will pay for the strong when they get sick? I don't think socialism will work in the long run for the same reason communism doesn't work. Its constituents have to be consistent within the fundamental principles of human behavior. It ignores incentives. And alot of people say, "exactly! That's why we like it. It doesn't spawn greed like that of capitalism." However, by failing to emphasize incentives, socialism will undermine the value of hard work, high achievement, and other facets of human behavior that makes us tick. It breeds this monotone, drab, and stale existence of clock punching, where you can't pave your own way. You are assigned a lot in life, and that's it. Excuse me, the state doesn't execute people because they are unproductive. They may cinch their own noose. I wouldn't argue with that. But its like the Proverb says, "Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest-- and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man." That means whatever happens to the sluggard is of his own devises. Now, it would be stupid to say that capitalism has all the answers. The reality is, capitalism has its own pitfalls. But it is the only system that has been shown to work effectively for many civilizations throughout history.I would like to get the opinion of the Britons on socialized healthcare. Its my understanding that 'waiting lists' for very important, life-critical treatments are being devised because they simply don't have the money or resources to treat everyone like they can in the states. Now, in America, you can be broke as a joke and still be admitted into the hospital. You will be treated for free and the taxpayers will eat it. But, the one's with insurance fair a much better standing than those without. I would agree that HMO's are not the solution, but perhaps the PPO's are not as bad. Now, this information about British medicine was coming from secondhand sources, so I don't want to be presumptuous. I'd like to get their input. No, they are still very much communist in most respects, however, they're finally starting to figure out that a free market is making them an awful lot of money. Well, that's just it. They call themselves communists, but if you go there, its very much evident that there are still class statuses. There are still rich and poor. If they would just commit to a better economy and a free constitution, they would immediately pull millions out of poverty that would have otherwise died as a result to their tyrrany.

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Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers

Funny. I have somehow missed this drab socialist world while in sweden. I really don't understand why.Oh, wait, I know. Maybe it's because you're a touch wrong on this. They don't like paying the amount of taxes that they do--or at least, the swedes I know. But, when it comes down to it, they still have incentive to work. If you make more today than you did yesterday, even though the government s taking away more, you're still left with more money. And they really like their vacations. Now tell me, how do you afford a vacation? or golf? or whatever else?My incentive is not in making money alone. that's worthless. I work because I need the money to get what I want. So long as there is something that you want, there is an incentive to work.one quick note to add to that last statement--welfare should not give you money for wants. only for needs. those would be food, clothing, shelter. water is included with food. ever see the movie John Q? broke as a joke, and still his son wasn't taken care of. (until he did something quite drastic, but very understandable)

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That's an idea that I've been tossing around - have clubs or organisations or PACs or whatever you need to organize (perhaps it could be the Democratic Party as an example) - and anyone that is a dues paying member (self-taxed) gets the benefits of the program. By having a large umbrella program you get the cost savings of large corporations, so you can now provide coverage for little mom and pop companies and for single parents on part-time pay scales (walmarts of the world) and still get reasonable coverage, perhaps even better that the big companies can get.You could reduce a lot of government programs intos such volutary programs and let people decide what they want to pay for in return for what they want to get in return.If the programs are popular they will grow.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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I started thinking about this due to the abject failure of the Botch administration to come up with anything novel in the way of government for either Afghanistan or Iraq, coupled with the wonder that they adapted parliamentarian systems rather than anything similar to the American system.For a party particularly enamored with their personal country government it seems odd not to promote this in other parts of the world when there is such an opportunity.OR - they completely and utterly abrogated their responsibility to mentor a country with archaic means of government to consider modern models when building replacement governments for the ones they had removed.Iraq in particular could have benefited, imh(ysa)o from having states under regional control combined into a united federal government, as it would have given sunnies, shiites, kurds, and others places within the country.I am also of the opinion that this could be a very important field for the UN to get involved in: developing model governments that could be applied in a transitional system for any country where there has been sever social and political collapse (whether due to war or drought or whatever).It seems like people stopped thinking about how to make it better as soon as they got comfortable.Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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People die under any totalitarian regime, whether it plays lip-service to communism or capitalism or religion.We forget the reason for the child labor laws and the like -- they were not due to the excesses of communism. Do you think it is worth thinking about?

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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I never know quite what to make of posts like this one of yours, NJ. Let's look at the most recent meta-study which shows what virtually every prior study has shown. And ask them about their vacations--U.S. workers get squat by comparison. What, the rich aren't allowed to have insurance?In fact, Social Security and Medicare are struggling systems in large part because they are neither means-tested nor progressive: Bill Gates will be able to collect his monthly stipend right along with the despondent widow, and his contributions stop at the same income level as mine.One thing the rich get from social contracts is license for their wealth: the rest of us don't team up and take it--now THAT would be laissez faire. The real danger to the wealthy is in the winner-take-all mentality of globalized American capitalism: it was the capacity of industrial capitalism to provide a decent living to the workers that caused the Communist prediction of collapse--due to internal contradictions--to fail. Now working and middle class incomes in the U.S. have stagnated or fallen for several decades while the rich grow ever richer. Marx and Engels may yet have their revenge. So when a homeless, hungry Jesus knocks at your door, you say, "Go to the ant, you sluggard"?The sluggard may deserve what he gets--that doesn't mean that everyone who gets that deserves it or is a sluggard. You are demonstrating the common correlation of being born on third base with the belief that one has hit a home run.45 million Americans, among them millions of "sluggard" infants and children, lack health insurance, and hospitals in California dump disoriented, penniless old women outside soup kitchens and missions--but you want to point fingers at a waiting list in the UK? You need to be seriously disabused about what happens when a sick or injured person without insurance or means walks into an ER. I suggest you try it the next time you need care. Clue: people without the magic plastic card die while waiting their "turn."People who are willing to work should earn a living wage. But the current minimum wage cannot support even one individual, let alone a family. Many blue collar families depend on two wage earners working multiple jobs just to make ends meet, without health insurance, while being subjected to the indifferent contempt of their "betters" and the twin threats of illegal alien labor and exported jobs--those threats, of course, coming from supporters of family values, patriotism, and stay at home Moms.Socialism in its simplest form merely says that the greed of the wealthiest cannot condemn the poorest to an existence that shames our humanity. The great debate among early 20th century socialists was about ameliorization: is it better to make marginal improvements in the workers' lot, and thus delay revolution, or to let the capitalists do their greedy worst in order to hasten the day? In general, the movement settled on ameliorization, and the prodigious output from technological advances lifted all boats. The insatiable greed of global capitalism has changed that.

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This is where I think the next moves will have to be. Conservatives will block and try to destroy any universal plan, but as long as it is voluntary they can't object that they are being forced to pay for someone else. And IF it starts to show results they may then find they need to re-evaluate their thinking.I would like to see medicare taken up in this manner as a pilot program. It is something that the Democrats can propose that will have some bipartisan flavor and go towards solving problems of medical care for children and costs of medical care for small companies. You pay dues to belong to the group - voluntary taxes.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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One of the major problems with the welfare system was that as soon as you started earning a LITTLE money you lost ALL the welfare, so you ended up with less overall - less money and less time - thus making it easier to stay in welfare.Provide for the basic needs, by all means but then add any earning on to that and have a progressive tax scheme (think of a hyperbolic curve for after tax income with a "y" intercept of starvation wage = basics only).

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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