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Author Topic:   UCLA student tased multiple times... pointless police violence?
Taz
Member (Idle past 906 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 1 of 142 (364613)
11-18-2006 7:24 PM


kcra
dailybruin
LATimes
quote:
Student shot with Taser by UCPD officers
UCPD officers shot a student several times with a Taser inside the Powell Library CLICC computer lab late Tuesday night before taking him into custody.

No university police officers were available to comment further about the incident as of 3 a.m. Wednesday, and no Community Service Officers who were on duty at the time could be reached.

At around 11:30 p.m., CSOs asked a male student using a computer in the back of the room to leave when he was unable to produce a BruinCard during a random check. The student did not exit the building immediately.

The CSOs left, returning minutes later, and police officers arrived to escort the student out. By this time the student had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, at which point the student told the officer to let him go. A second officer then approached the student as well.

The student began to yell "get off me," repeating himself several times.

It was at this point that the officers shot the student with a Taser for the first time, causing him to fall to the floor and cry out in pain. The student also told the officers he had a medical condition.

UCPD officers confirmed that the man involved in the incident was a student, but did not give a name or any additional information about his identity.

Video shot from a student's camera phone captured the student yelling, "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your fucking abuse of power," while he struggled with the officers.

As the student was screaming, UCPD officers repeatedly told him to stand up and said "stop fighting us." The student did not stand up as the officers requested and they shot him with the Taser at least once more.

"It was the most disgusting and vile act I had ever seen in my life," said David Remesnitsky, a 2006 UCLA alumnus who witnessed the incident.

As the student and the officers were struggling, bystanders repeatedly asked the police officers to stop, and at one point officers told the gathered crowd to stand back and threatened to use a Taser on anyone who got too close.

Laila Gordy, a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident, said police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number.

Gordy was visibly upset by the incident and said other students were also disturbed.

"It's a shock that something like this can happen at UCLA," she said. "It was unnecessary what they did."

Immediately after the incident, several students began to contact local news outlets, informing them of the incident, and Remesnitsky wrote an e-mail to Interim Chancellor Norman Abrams.


Incidently, a student managed to capture it on his cell phone video. You can watch ithere or here.

I have several questions. Aren't we protected by the 4th amendment from unreasonable search and seizure? The student was leaving the library when he was held back and tased. Even though the student was yelling "don't touch me", do you think using a taser on a hand cuffed student multiple times is a little excessive?

But the thing I am most puzzled about is that the police were ordering him to stand up after he was tased the first time and with his hands cuffed in the back. I have always been under the impression that a taser gun temporarily incapacitates you so you wouldn't be able to "fight back". Could he have stood up with both his hands cuffed on his back and a few seconds after he's been tased?

The police commented that the kid was able to walk out of the station after the whole thing so clearly he was not "harmed". Does tha mean that I can go over to my next door neighbor and punch him in the face? He's a big man and I'm sure he'd be able to walk around after I punched him.

Edited by gasby, : No reason given.


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5544
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 2 of 142 (364616)
11-18-2006 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
11-18-2006 7:24 PM


Does tha mean that I can go over to my next door neighbor and punch him in the face? He's a big man and I'm sure he'd be able to walk around after I punched him.

Would you be able to walk around?

I expect heads will roll at the UCLA campus police.


Just say no to McCain 2008; he abandoned principle when he caved on habeus corpus
This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 142 (364619)
11-18-2006 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
11-18-2006 7:24 PM


The student was leaving the library when he was held back and tased. Even though the student was yelling "don't touch me", do you think using a taser on a hand cuffed student multiple times is a little excessive?

No, I think it's an act of brutality and every one of these officers should be fired and lose their pensions, along with every level of the administration that is actively working to protect them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 11-18-2006 7:24 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 4 of 142 (364629)
11-18-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
11-18-2006 7:24 PM


Reviewing the video
I don't know what actually transpired before the camera was turned on, so it would be presumptuous of me to insist either that the man was in the wrong or if another avenue could/should have been taken by the UCLA police dept.

All that I can do is critique what little we can see and hear from the video. I found footage that lasts alot longer than what the OP had posted. According to testimony, UCLA PD rove the library at 11:00 pm to check for transients and anyone not affiliated with the school who are trespassing. Apparently, the man was no a student, or if he was, he didn't have his id with him. He was asked to leave several times, but refused. After battling with him to leave and giving several commands, the individual became belligerent and incompliant. After making it clear that he was going to leave after several warnings, he was tased. After the initial tase, I counted 79 commands to "get up." He was also warned several times that he would be tased. That didn't seem to affect his decision. The man started touting some rhetoric about brutality and something about the Patriot Act.

Given the man's disposition and the officer's patience in the matter, from what I saw, the officers were well within the realm of a reasonable use of force in accordance to the level of escalation. Now, my only question about the officer's actions is that I'm pretty sure that I heard their handcuffs being employed. I also thought that I saw the man handcuffed. That means he was fairly secure. Why tell him to get up instead of pulling him to his feet? That makes think that the man was acting like a 'limp noodle,' meaning he was using passive aggressive techniques. Officers are not supposed to carry anyone, especially handcuffed by the arms and legs because it could separate their shoulder girdle.

I believe that the man was just being 'emo,' for lack of a better word. And all the people in the library watching the event, clearly know nothing about law enforcement, otherwise they'd be more inclined to be irritated by the suspect rather than the officers. This is just one instance of a whole counter-culture who demonize law enforcement and seek to emasculate the field.

Final analysis: The police were justified in their actions.

Having made that determination, I will give you clips showing what true police brutality looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9hS0ZhpFPA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVW5_PJHzR4&mode=related&search=

Here's an example of what is NOT police brutality, but rather, an instance where activism wants to completely emasculate law enforcement and turn the criminal into a hero.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baix0Xa9x3o

I hope any reasonable person can see the difference between good and bad law enforcement.

Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : add link


Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29787
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 5 of 142 (364630)
11-18-2006 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
This is just one instance of a whole counter-culture who demonize law enforcement and seek to emasculate the field.

Sorry but I for one cannot see that.

Final analysis: The police were justified in their actions.

Can't see that either. I would hate to see what they might think was the appropriate response to an overdue book.

Right now there is far too little information to make a full determination of the whole event, but I can see NO justification of using violence simply because someone refuses to leave a library.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3135 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 6 of 142 (364632)
11-18-2006 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
That was clearly a case of abuse of power.
there is no good reason to keep tasing a person like that when he was already hancuffed
I am alittle disgusted by what I saw and by your comments too.
This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 7 of 142 (364633)
11-18-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
11-18-2006 10:13 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
Right now there is far too little information to make a full determination of the whole event, but I can see NO justification of using violence simply because someone refuses to leave a library.

For the record, I agree that far too little is known about what transpired. That's why I only based my decision on what I could see and hear.

How would you have handled it if you asked the man to leave and he didn't leave? Diplomacy failed, so what other alternatives exist?


Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 8 of 142 (364634)
11-18-2006 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
nemesis_juggernaut writes:

the officers were well within the realm of a reasonable use of force in accordance to the level of escalation.

What "level of escalation" are you talking about?


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Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 9 of 142 (364635)
11-18-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by fallacycop
11-18-2006 10:38 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
That was clearly a case of abuse of power.

Since we have quite a few criminal justice majors in here, what should they have done differently? And under what circumstances is tasing justified in your best estimation?

I am alittle disgusted by what I saw and by your comments too.

What exactly did I say that was egregious? The man was warned numerous times. He failed to comply, the police followed through. He had ample time to comply. Would you disagree with that?

I personally would not have tased him. I would have used some pain compliance techniques like pressing on the pressure point behind the ear or putting my finger underneath his and applied pressure first. If that still didn't work, then I would threaten to use either pepper foam or a taser.

How do you get someone to walk when they use passive aggressive techniques? What do you think officers should be able to do?


Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29787
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 10 of 142 (364636)
11-18-2006 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 10:50 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
How would you have handled it if you asked the man to leave and he didn't leave? Diplomacy failed, so what other alternatives exist?

well, let's see:


  1. Do nothing.
  2. Observe.
  3. Call for additional response.
  4. Take a picture of him and tell him it will be turned into student services in the morning.
  5. Sit down beside him.

Just off the top of my head.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 11 of 142 (364637)
11-18-2006 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
11-18-2006 10:55 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
What "level of escalation" are you talking about?

The standard level of escalation.

1. Presence
2. Verbal
3. Come-along techniques
4. Pain compliance
5. Pepper foam/taser
6. Impact weapons
7. Deadly force (fireamrs)

You start at the bottom and depending on the situation, you follow the levels accordingly. You also want to one-up the individual. It really just depends on the situation. There is no perfect scenario.


Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers
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Taz
Member (Idle past 906 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 142 (364638)
11-18-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 10:50 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
nemesis writes:

How would you have handled it if you asked the man to leave and he didn't leave? Diplomacy failed, so what other alternatives exist?


But according to both the witnesses' accounts and the police's, he was leaving the library when he was held back. In this particular case, diplomacy did win.

I don't think anyone is here to argue that the kid wasn't annoying and playing the passive agressive game. What people like me don't understand is the use of taser at least 4 times being a necessary thing in this case. While I haven't been tased before, I've been electricuted. It wasn't a pleasant experience. Scratch that. It was a painful experience.

Ok, assuming he had enough time to regain his motor control after the first tase but decided to keep lying on the floor. I noticed that the officers were ordering him to get up while tasing him again and again. I thought the whole point of a taser gun is to incapacitate a person, not make his legs more mobile.

Excessive force?


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The thread about this map can be found here.


This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 13 of 142 (364640)
11-18-2006 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
11-18-2006 11:01 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
1. Do nothing.

That's not a viable option when someone is trespassing on private property. Maybe we'll let the guy come to your house and we'll see how long doin' nothin' will work out for you.

2. Observe.

Observe what exactly? Observe him reading? What's that going to accomplish?

3. Call for additional response.

There were three officers present. How many more were really necessary?

4. Take a picture of him and tell him it will be turned into student services in the morning.

Turn him into student services? And what exactly is that going to accomplish? Revoke his library card? Something tells me that anyone not willing to comply with officers after being tased won't be willing to listen to librarians either.

5. Sit down beside him.

Maybe they did. I'm sure what prompted the camera to come on was after he made a big scene by not leaving after he was talked to. Something tells me they didn't break down the door, rush over to him and start tasing him.

In the final analysis, it would seem that you are still left wondering what to do.


Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 14 of 142 (364641)
11-18-2006 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 11:02 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
Well, my question was in reference to the officers' response to the victim's actions. In what way did the victim "provoke" an escalation of response by escalating his actions? His "actions" seemed to consist mostly of lying on the floor.

When you're trying to remove an unauthorized person, surely nothing beyond "come-along techniques" is justifiable. If the officers couldn't handle their subject without the use of "pain compliance", they are - at the very least - incompetent.


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jar
Member
Posts: 29787
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 15 of 142 (364643)
11-18-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hyroglyphx
11-18-2006 11:13 PM


Re: Reviewing the video
It's a library nemesis, a library.

That's not a viable option when someone is trespassing on private property. Maybe we'll let the guy come to your house and we'll see how long doin' nothin' will work out for you.

First off it is NOT private property, it is the "University of California Los Angeles". You love bringing up completely off topic comparisons. That might work some places but that dog won't hunt here.

Observe what exactly? Observe him reading? What's that going to accomplish?

It will put someone on site in case ANYTHING threatening were to happen. As long as he is studying and not disrupting other people, what is the problem?

There were three officers present. How many more were really necessary?

If they had to resort to a taser, then obviously not enough.

Turn him into student services? And what exactly is that going to accomplish? Revoke his library card? Something tells me that anyone not willing to comply with officers after being tased won't be willing to listen to librarians either.

Get serious. If he is a student then he had EVERY right to be there.

Maybe they did. I'm sure what prompted the camera to come on was after he made a big scene by not leaving after he was talked to. Something tells me they didn't break down the door, rush over to him and start tasing him.

They obviously didn't sit long enough.

Come on nemesis, it is a library at a publicly funded school, owned by the citizens of California.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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