Lake Varve Sediments and the Great Flood

Your mistake is in assuming that because lying Creationists tell you geologists assume all varves are put down the same way that it is the truth. No one except the lying Creationists think that all varves are put down the same way. What is different is that the biologists and geologists that actually look at such things can tell a lot about how a specimen was created.It is simply another example of how the folk selling ID and Creationism play fast and loose with reason and the truth to keep the flow of money coming in from the Christian Cult of Ignorance and Communion of Bobbleheads.

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

Sorry but that is simply a nonsense assertion. The key point is that it is possible to look at records, whether it is varves or ice layers or coral layers or the geologic column and determine how they were laid down. The ones in the OP are annual layers. Not at all, Creationists can be geologists or biologists, but geology and biology cannot be done anyway except under the old earth models. There are no Young Earth models or Biblical Creation models to use.

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

Content, size, material, formation. In the case of lake varves the content is what was growing at the time. Things such as pollen, or critters or sediment. In the case of the Green River formation in Wyoming there is a record of over 4,000,000 layers or varves. They alternate between a fine grained layer and then a coarser grained layer.As to your link, sorry, but no Young Earth model or Biblical Creation model there. If you think shit like this is a model then you do have much to learn.Fortunately you have arrived in a place where you can actually learn stuff if you want.Once you work through "Lake Varve Sediments and the Great Flood" you can move on to learn many other things.It's all up to you.

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

If the Theory of Evolution presented something like that graph and claimed it was a model, certainly.AbE:Let me expand as you asked. The site he linked to had a section that they claimed was a geological model, but when I clicked on it all I got was the graph I linked to. Now that is not a model, in fact it is not even a hypothesis, perhaps it is on it's way to becoming a WAG, but not quite there yet.Up thread creationist mentions the ash fields from Mt. St. Helen's eruption. The facts are that even had we not been on scene, after the fact geologists would have been able to identify those field as either ash fall or ash flows, and to differentiate between the two.What happens in nature leaves records and those records can be read. In the case that I mentioned, the Green River varves, we see over 4,000,000 layers and the finer material is so fine that it would take a minimum of a month to settle out as well as other condition, very slow flowing or still water. The coarser material indicates faster flow.So what we see is a snapshot of over four million episodes, each lasting over a month. From the thickness of some of the finer layers we can safely say that the event took considerably longer than a month, but even if we use the minimal figure of one month per cycle, we have a record of over 300,000 years. And that is just that one location, that one piece of information.The fact is that there has not been a world-wide flood. Not ever.Edited by jar, : Expand reply.

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

Content will vary depending on what specific example you are looking at. In the example I gave of the Green River varves it is two different fine materials, one lighter, one darker, one coarser that the other. see Message 21 for more information on that example.

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As to your link, sorry, but no Young Earth model or Biblical Creation model there. If you think shit like this is a model then you do have much to learn.

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Yes, I see your point.

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http://rcp.missouri.edu/geosci_shelton/research/geocol.htm

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Geologic column - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

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No reason to accept any of it as a scientific model.

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Yes, none of those are models however the first you linked to is simply a depiction of fact, the depiction of the existing geologic column at one particular place; while the later if you read the write up is simply a perversion of truth and a collection of attempts to palm the pea, more an effort to see just how gullible ignorant Christian Creationists can be. I have no such presuppositions. The fact that the earth is old, and the universe even older is a conclusion based on the evidence, not a presupposition.

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

On the lighter and darker material and its consistency, the size of the particles. How is that a problem? But the evidence DID tell me that. Bullshit. Sorry but that really is the problem. His chart is a fantasy based on his presuppositions, mine is based on conclusions from the evidence. Sorry but that is simply more bullshit. The Geological Column is simply a statement of what exists, no presuppositions needed beyond the assuption that lower layers were laid down before the material on top of it. The geological column itself is only a listing of what is found. There is nothing there that requires belief, it simply is.A good example is the listing of Green River varves as I outlined in Message 21.We can see the material that makes up each layer, tell how fine the material was, test to see how long it would take for the sediment to fall out of suspension in water at different flow rates. What we see is over 4 million such cycles. As I said, even at the very minimal period of on month per layer (and remember many of the layers are so think it must have taking far longer, and in reality what is seen is the annual spring run off so over 4 million years is the most likely period) we see a record of not less than 333,333 years.Edited by jar, : fix link to msg 21

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

The people here may well be honorable opponents but the folk leading the Creationist, ID movement are crafty connivers. There is NO honor to be found there.

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

It is almost all silt. Be in an area devoid of oxygen is one way. No, you still have it backwards. I made conclusions based on the evidence. No, it is a conclusion. If you can present a model that explains what is seen that is different, please do so. You need a method to lay down alternating layers of silt that is consistent and will produce the over 4 million alternating layers of lighter and darker, finer and coarser silt. Gish Gallop, palming the pea, misdirection. Won't fly here.We are talking about how lake varves were laid down. There are at least 20 places around the world where the full geological column is present. Here is a discussion on that

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

It doesn't much matter what you believe or don't believe. It is a matter of what the evidence actually shows. Actually, no that is not true. It is not unusual to find Anaerobic conditions and in fact, such conditions are on the rise.But that is all still just Gish Gallop, misdirection, palming the pea and other dancing techniques.The material at Mt. St. Helen's is different then what is seen in the Green River varves. The issue for creationists is to provide a model that creates what is seen there. A volcano won't do it, they are not volcanic ash. They are a series of over 4 million alternating layers of lighter and darker, finer and coarser silts.That is the model you need to present.The rest of your stuff is simply another attempt to draw the discussion off topic.Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

But that says nothing since you are asserting some imaginary flood. In addition you need to describe the model that creates over 4 million alternating varves of light and dark, finer and coarser silt. Bullshit. There is no reason that the number of layers should be the same between the ash layers. In fact that simply adds additional weight since obviously they are NOT the mechanism that produced the alternating layers of silt.So what is the model to explain the over 4 million alternating layers of lighter and darker, finer and coarser silt?Remember, the minimum time for the fine layer to form is a month. So regardless of anything else we are looking at not less than 333,333 years.

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

Sorry, we are looking at very fine sediment that stays in suspension unless the water is virtually still.Now, please explain what the 4,000,000 catastrophic events were?

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

They can only settle on the bottom. That is what is so clear about this example. We have over 4,000,000 instances of a finer material being laid down followed by a slightly coarser layer then another finer layer, another coarser layer.To get that fine a silt to settle out the water must be near still, followed by the more active flow to provide the slightly coarser layer, followed another quiescent period.This is not sand but silt and we can deal with how to make silt after someone explains How to make sand., but for now, you need to present the model that explains over 4 million layers of finer silt then coarser silt, lighter silt then darker silt.So lets look at your 4 million catastrophic events. If it happened over the 6000 year period you have mentioned that is over 666 events a year, about two a day, every day right up through yesterday. Likely someone might have noticed.In that case it also eliminates a flood during those 6000 years.If it happened during the flood year it is about 11,000 repeating cycles a day or something over 450 such events every hour, more than seven every minute.Now remember this is such fine silt that it will stay suspended unless the water is standing still for a considerable period of time.So once again, what is your model for the 4 million plus alternating layers of finer and coarser, lighter and darker material?

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

Actually, research from 2000 points pretty definitely to the Green River Varves being annual events as you can see here which actually gives us not 4 million years but even longer.

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

Thank you sir. Would you take a look at Message 44 where I post a few other issues involved in the Green River varves and see if that makes the issue any clearer?

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

One of the exciting things about the Green River varves is that they go back far enough to allow additional correlations with other cycles, for example the 11 year sunspot cycle and the 21,000 year orbital cycle.Since those factors show up in the record it adds additional weight to the conclusion that they are annual cycles.

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!