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Author Topic:   Lake Varve Sediments and the Great Flood
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2092 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 91 of 119 (443979)
12-27-2007 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Percy
12-27-2007 4:48 PM


Re: on models:replace evolution with creation for the sake of science!!!!!
Re: on models
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Varves are annual sedimentary layers. You're proposing that a world wide flood could quickly deposit many sedimentary layers identical in all respects to varves we see deposited annually today, including 14C signatures (average increasing age of one year per layer).

I have no idea what Walt thinks on annual varves suspect he has not much of a problem with them forming after the biblical flood. You 14C dating being flawed because of all the movement under the lake, liquefaction, springs on the bottom of the lakes, Co2 and methane affecting boyancy, humic acids bringing more 14c into the fossil cellose dated, etc...

I noticed you did not acknowledge springs on the bottom of lakes, so much stuff one has to not acknowledge for multiple varves from your perspective to make sense.

I call that psuedo science or delusional science which is one big reason evolution should be replaced with creation science.

I mean you have trees suspended in sediments were told are millions of years old yet the trees date thousands of years old, you have commerical labs fudging out 14c according to Baumgardener and the skinny the labs don't believe 14c should be their so they wipe it off as if it never was. Such lies to pretend the earth is an old earth, is kind reminds me of Nebraska Man.

P.S. All you have is you say the varves are old but your disregarding reputable science. Do you have any evidence that humic acids are not a big part of lake waters, that varves are not collidal in nature, whats the percentage of water in the varves, did they test for concentrations of humic acids in the leachate of the varves taken, test for 14C in the leachate, was methane tested for in off gases, Co2 tested for, volatile acids, etc... If not then WHY ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Percy, posted 12-27-2007 4:48 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Percy, posted 12-27-2007 5:57 PM johnfolton has not yet responded

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2092 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 92 of 119 (443982)
12-27-2007 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by edge
12-27-2007 5:28 PM


Re: on models: replace evolution with creation
Is it these lateral water lenses that cause springs on the bottom of the lake beds to bubble upwards thru the varves?

No. And that is the point.

How are springs on the bottom of the lake being recharged if not laterally from the watershed?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by edge, posted 12-27-2007 5:28 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 13362
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 93 of 119 (443985)
12-27-2007 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by johnfolton
12-27-2007 5:43 PM


Re: on models:replace evolution with creation for the sake of science!!!!!
The relevant point that you need to address is how a world wide flood could quickly deposit many sedimentary layers identical in all respects to varves we see deposited annually today, including 14C signatures (average increasing age of one year per layer).

You also need to address how a world wide flood could leave no evidence at all, while archeologists have no trouble identifying evidence of comparatively tiny ancient floods, such as those at Ur, some predating Noah's flood.

Nothing you've said is relevant to these issues, or to varves, either, the topic of this thread. The varve layers we see being deposited today occur in exceptionally quiet water, and the older varve layers are identical in character. Varves form under oxygen deprived conditions that result when water in lower levels is very still and doesn't mix with water in higher levels, a factor missing from your active-water scenarios.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by johnfolton, posted 12-27-2007 5:43 PM johnfolton has not yet responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2013
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 94 of 119 (443987)
12-27-2007 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by johnfolton
12-27-2007 4:47 PM


Re: on models
reversespin writes:

I'll give God the credit for the granites due to the helium suggesting its only became granite 6,000 years ago... But Humphreys granites has nothing to do with varves kind of a different subject, etc....

It is NOT a different subject. I asked if muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth covered in varves?

Answer the question. Goddidit is not an answer in a science thread.

If you want to understand limestone, granites, sedimentary rock, etc... you might check out the answers from genesis folk.

No thanks, my degree in geological engineering comes from reputable professors from the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, not from con-men and hucksters selling dinosaur saddles.

PS. I am quite familiar with AIG, ICR, and their ilk. What is your background in real science as taught by the 99.85% of bioscientists and geoscientists that accept an old earth and evolution?

Or are you afraid of the truth?


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by johnfolton, posted 12-27-2007 4:47 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by johnfolton, posted 12-27-2007 7:16 PM anglagard has responded

    
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2092 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 95 of 119 (444007)
12-27-2007 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by anglagard
12-27-2007 6:03 PM


Re: on models: Creationists Rock, etc...!!!!!!!!
It is NOT a different subject. I asked if muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth covered in varves?

When the flood happened the Word says it was summer in the southern hemisphere meaning it was winter in the northern hemisphere. So like where the glaciers melted in the northern hemisphere you'd find more glacial lakes like in minnesota and more exposed granite like in the Michigans upper penninsula.

I'm winging it but you have granite uplifts like as in expressed in the rocky mountains (tetons jackson hole, etc...)like the Word says the hills were raised and the valleys lowered and this is what you see in the natural. psalm 104

El Capitan Plateau with an elevation above sea level with near a mile of sediments covering these coral oil producing organisms beneath meaning it once was at sealevel but was upraised after it was covered in sediments.

So you have the granite rocky mountains capturing the timber giving us the massive coal fossil grave yards and the sediment that could not carry the mountains but covering the massive timber all along the rocky mountains.

The badlands look like severly eroded hills where did all these sediments go, etc... Its like the Grand Canyon if the erosion happened over millions of years where is the missing sediment that would be present if it happened slowly over millions of years.

Its like the Hudson Canyon many times greater than the Grand Canyon if it happened over millions of years it could not of carved it but a world flood waters washing off the earth answers questions like the size of the Hudson Canyon, Amazon Canyon, etc....

Actually the creationists appear to me to be questioning science where evolution seems to be saying this is it and don't question it, etc... Well if you have muddy waters compacting in kettle lakes then liquefaction can happen as particles sort due water exerting pressure on all sides of the particles. You have a whole host of biological and chemical processes affecting different senerio's, etc...

For all you know kettle lakes were formed by a big chunk of ice floating in on the biblical flood settling into the soft post flood sediments and as it melted it formed millions of varves. I mean no one was there so lets test the varves what exactly is in the varve, humic acids, methane in the leachate, Co2, is it colloidal in nature, etc... With anaerobic digestion you'd have 14C becoming a part of the leachate which means you can not believe any data from lake varve studies unless you prove no anaerobic digestion Methane rising or water rising in springs from the bottom is not skewing the results.

P.S. Don't feel bad that lake varves are meaningless thats usually seems to be the case when evolutionists put the cart ahead of the horse and call that science. Nebraska man, etc...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by anglagard, posted 12-27-2007 6:03 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by anglagard, posted 12-27-2007 8:26 PM johnfolton has responded
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2013
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 96 of 119 (444019)
12-27-2007 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by johnfolton
12-27-2007 7:16 PM


Re: on models: Creationists Rock, etc...!!!!!!!!
It is NOT a different subject. I asked if muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth covered in varves?

When the flood happened the Word says it was summer in the southern hemisphere meaning it was winter in the northern hemisphere. So like where the glaciers melted in the northern hemisphere you'd find more glacial lakes like in minnesota and more exposed granite like in the Michigans upper penninsula.

How does this answer the question "if muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth covered in varves?"

I'm winging it but you have granite uplifts like as in expressed in the rocky mountains (tetons jackson hole, etc...)like the Word says the hills were raised and the valleys lowered and this is what you see in the natural. psalm 104

OK, then why are all sedimentary basins on earth not covered in varves?

So you have the granite rocky mountains capturing the timber giving us the massive coal fossil grave yards and the sediment that could not carry the mountains but covering the massive timber all along the rocky mountains.

Coal formation is not the subject of this thread. I repeat, "if muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth covered in varves?"

The badlands look like severly eroded hills where did all these sediments go, etc... Its like the Grand Canyon if the erosion happened over millions of years where is the missing sediment that would be present if it happened slowly over millions of years.

According to your model, they all turned into varves, where are the varves?

Its like the Hudson Canyon many times greater than the Grand Canyon if it happened over millions of years it could not of carved it but a world flood waters washing off the earth answers questions like the size of the Hudson Canyon, Amazon Canyon, etc....

No answer again.

Actually the creationists appear to me to be questioning science where evolution seems to be saying this is it and don't question it, etc... Well if you have muddy waters compacting in kettle lakes then liquefaction can happen as particles sort due water exerting pressure on all sides of the particles. You have a whole host of biological and chemical processes affecting different senerio's, etc...

Then tell us the mechanism by which the exact same global depositional environment created the diversity of deposits and landforms observed today. It's your assertion, this is a science thread, back it up.

For all you know kettle lakes were formed by a big chunk of ice floating in on the biblical flood settling into the soft post flood sediments and as it melted it formed millions of varves. I mean no one was there so lets test the varves what exactly is in the varve, humic acids, methane in the leachate, Co2, is it colloidal in nature, etc... With anaerobic digestion you'd have 14C becoming a part of the leachate which means you can not believe any data from lake varve studies unless you prove no anaerobic digestion Methane rising or water rising in springs from the bottom is not skewing the results.

This thread is not about your personal ignorance of science. Geology has a model on how varves are formed, why the earth, or at least all sedimentary basins are not covered in varves, and how old varves most likely are at each point, often down to an annual basis. Once again "if muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth covered in varves?"

P.S. Don't feel bad that lake varves are meaningless thats usually seems to be the case when evolutionists put the cart ahead of the horse and call that science. Nebraska man, etc...

Quit trying to weasel out by changing the subject to some off-topic fantasy about "Nebraska Man."

Answer the question. If muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth (or at least every depositional basin) covered in varves?


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by johnfolton, posted 12-27-2007 7:16 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by johnfolton, posted 12-27-2007 10:40 PM anglagard has responded

    
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2092 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 97 of 119 (444041)
12-27-2007 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by anglagard
12-27-2007 8:26 PM


Re: on models: Creationists Rock, etc...!!!!!!!!
How does this answer the question "if muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth covered in varves?"

Earth Worms ;) Likely when the earth dried sediments that lithified destroyed some of the varves your likely looking for, the earth worms resorted the soils of the earth, etc...

Then tell us the mechanism by which the exact same global depositional environment created the diversity of deposits and landforms observed today. It's your assertion, this is a science thread, back it up.

The fossil record is stratified within the sediments whole trees going thru millions of years of your strata sediment layers.

The obvious answer is your science lied to you in respect to millions of years. Fossils decay and if it has to wait for a million years to be covered its just a problem no evolutionists appear able to comprehend. However if they are buried within the muddied suspended sediments via liquefaction via a world flood then lithified they are preserved and thats basically our fossil record. How do you explain footprints preserved within the sediments if not by water lenses.

Those horizontal laminations in limestone are obviously water lenses which are found all over the world(World Flood). When the earth dried up pressure and lithification formed some pretty incredible formations not the kind you find in some lake beds. Its just incredible, etc...What is your explanation for these formations if not by liquefaction.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Liquefaction7.html

Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by anglagard, posted 12-27-2007 8:26 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by anglagard, posted 12-27-2007 11:11 PM johnfolton has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2013
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 98 of 119 (444046)
12-27-2007 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by johnfolton
12-27-2007 10:40 PM


Re: on models: Creationists Rock, etc...!!!!!!!!
From Anglagard, apparently for the remainder of the thread:

quote:
How does this answer the question "if muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth covered in varves?"

reversespin writes:

The fossil record is stratified within the sediments whole trees going thru millions of years of your strata sediment layers.

This thread is not about polystrate trees, it is about varves. Answer the question and quit palming the pea.

The obvious answer is your science lied to you in respect to millions of years. Fossils decay and if it has to wait for a million years to be covered its just a problem no evolutionists appear able to comprehend. However if they are buried within the muddied suspended sediments via liquefaction via a world flood they are preserved and thats basically our fossil record.

Fossil preservation is also another subject that does not constitute an answer as to why all depositional basins are not covered with thousands of varves. Answer the question.

Those horizontal laminations in limestone are water lenses which are found all over the world. When the earth dried up pressure and lithification formed some pretty incredible formations not the kind you find in some lake beds.

If you have the same depositional environment worldwide, then why is the surface of the earth not covered with these imaginary 'water lenses' or to everyone else, varves? How does "the earth drying up" make "pressure?" Did the "earth dry up" under the ocean? Is lithification caused by pressure or dehydration? And if lithification is caused by dehydration, please feel free to explain confined aquifers.

A few sentences that make no sense whatsoever are not a replacement for the entire fields of physics, chemistry, and most of all geology.

Answer the question.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by johnfolton, posted 12-27-2007 10:40 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by johnfolton, posted 12-28-2007 12:51 AM anglagard has responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 2538
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 99 of 119 (444048)
12-27-2007 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by johnfolton
12-27-2007 7:16 PM


Re: on models: Creationists Rock, etc...!!!!!!!!
(snipped for incoherrencey)

I'm winging it ...

Reall??? I couldn't tell!

...but you have granite uplifts like as in expressed in the rocky mountains (tetons jackson hole, etc...)like the Word says the hills were raised and the valleys lowered and this is what you see in the natural. psalm 104

And the hills are still rising and the valleys still lowering... So, where's the flood?

El Capitan Plateau with an elevation above sea level with near a mile of sediments covering these coral oil producing organisms beneath meaning it once was at sealevel but was upraised after it was covered in sediments.

Meaning, ummm, just what? How is this different from mainstream science?

So you have the granite rocky mountains capturing the timber giving us the massive coal fossil grave yards and the sediment that could not carry the mountains but covering the massive timber all along the rocky mountains.

Heh, heh. This is getting better all the time.

The badlands look like severly eroded hills where did all these sediments go, etc... Its like the Grand Canyon if the erosion happened over millions of years where is the missing sediment that would be present if it happened slowly over millions of years.

Ummm, ever hear of a thing called the Misssissippi River Delta?

Its like the Hudson Canyon many times greater than the Grand Canyon if it happened over millions of years it could not of carved it but a world flood waters washing off the earth answers questions like the size of the Hudson Canyon, Amazon Canyon, etc....

So you are saying the flood is happening now because the Hudson Canyon is underwater? Your arguements are wandering and confused. Please try to focus. Have you ever read any mainstream ideas on the Hudson Canyon?

Actually the creationists appear to me to be questioning science where evolution seems to be saying this is it and don't question it, etc...

You mean all of those mined quotes of evolutionists questioning evolution are fake? Thanks for clearing that up.

Well if you have muddy waters compacting in kettle lakes then liquefaction can happen as particles sort due water exerting pressure on all sides of the particles. You have a whole host of biological and chemical processes affecting different senerio's, etc...

Ummm, whatever you say RS. Have you ever seen a kettle lake? How many flood-sized waves did you see on them?

For all you know kettle lakes were formed by a big chunk of ice floating in on the biblical flood settling into the soft post flood sediments and as it melted it formed millions of varves. I mean no one was there so lets test the varves what exactly is in the varve, humic acids, methane in the leachate, Co2, is it colloidal in nature, etc... With anaerobic digestion you'd have 14C becoming a part of the leachate which means you can not believe any data from lake varve studies unless you prove no anaerobic digestion Methane rising or water rising in springs from the bottom is not skewing the results.

The only source of methane around here is not the kettle-lakes, RS. Please try to stay focused in the future.

P.S. Don't feel bad that lake varves are meaningless...

Okay. Thanks.

...thats usually seems to be the case when evolutionists put the cart ahead of the horse and call that science. Nebraska man, etc...

You are wandering again RS. Disjointed, rambling, self-righteous rants are not evidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by johnfolton, posted 12-27-2007 7:16 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by johnfolton, posted 12-28-2007 12:32 AM edge has responded

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2092 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 100 of 119 (444053)
12-28-2007 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by edge
12-27-2007 11:27 PM


Re: on models: Its a Young earth folks !!!!, etc...!!!!!!!!
Reall??? I couldn't tell!

ha ha, etc...

And the hills are still rising and the valleys still lowering... So, where's the flood?

the valleys.... psalm 104 If you get a chance check out Kent Hovinds stuff think it was him that said if the earth was smoothed there is enough water to cover the earth with 1/2 mile of water. Awesome !!!!! that much water in the oceans. Apparently so, etc...etc... etc...

Heh, heh. This is getting better all the time.

Why, as the water rushed off the continents would not sediments be settling in log jams. I mean if you want to reclaim a beach you put obstructions out a bit and sand deposits as water velocities decrease as the waves base crash, it takes water and sand though like a world flood to cover our coal deposits.

Ummm, ever hear of a thing called the Misssissippi River Delta?

Ok, I'll bite where is the Grand Canyon delta? rotflmao !!!!!!!

You mean all of those mined quotes of evolutionists questioning evolution are fake? Thanks for clearing that up.

join the winning team become a creationists or at the very least the Intelligent Design movement. They all Rock !!!!! There the real thing, etc....

Ummm, whatever you say RS. Have you ever seen a kettle lake? How many flood-sized waves did you see on them?

Water has real weight though agree it does not really move but on shore the base of the wave crashes it sweeps stuff back out into the lake. I'm still waiting for how you explain spring water coming up from the bottom of the lake, how is it being recharged.

The only source of methane around here is not the kettle-lakes, RS. Please try to stay focused in the future.

Please link the study showing methane was tested for in kettle lake varves and not found therein.

P.S. It simply amazes me that you folk can not understand how untruthful is the theory of evolution, etc... In respect to kettle lakes icebergs floating on the flood waters is just as logical as any theory about kettle lakes out there like Lake Suisitsu how close to the ocean, etc... I mean you don't see a whole lot of kettle lakes in the southern hemisphere only the northern hemisphere and this begs the question. Why? The bible says the flood happened during the winter in the northern hemisphere and the missing kettle lakes in Australia begs the question how glaciers being long periods of time because Australia should of had massive glaciation like most of Europe, Asia, and North America if the world was actually going thru centuries of global cooling, begs the question why are these kettle lakes absent in australia. The answer should be obvious that something is wrong with massive glaciation of only one hemisphere, etc...

Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by edge, posted 12-27-2007 11:27 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2092 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 101 of 119 (444054)
12-28-2007 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by anglagard
12-27-2007 11:11 PM


Re: on models:Its a Young earth folks !!!!
Fossil preservation is also another subject that does not constitute an answer as to why all depositional basins are not covered with thousands of varves. Answer the question.

It all depends if the sedimentation basins were formed during the flood in a liquefaction state its like aquifiers once you pull the water out of an aquifier due to pressure it lithifies it collapses never again able to be recharged to its previous capacities from the watershed.

Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by anglagard, posted 12-27-2007 11:11 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by anglagard, posted 12-28-2007 2:25 AM johnfolton has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2013
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 102 of 119 (444055)
12-28-2007 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by johnfolton
12-28-2007 12:51 AM


Re: on models:Its a Young earth folks !!!!
Once again, from Anglagard:

quote:
Fossil preservation is also another subject that does not constitute an answer as to why all depositional basins are not covered with thousands of varves. Answer the question.

reversespin writes:

It all depends if the sedimentation basins were formed during the flood in a liquefaction state its like aquifiers once you pull the water out of an aquifier due to pressure it lithifies it collapses never again able to be recharged to its previous capacities from the watershed.

Palm that pea.

Do you understand what I am saying? Do you understand what science is saying?

If you throw a pencil up in the air, does it come down?

If you throw that pencil in the air in the US does it come down? Does it come down in Europe? Australia? China? Africa? South America?

Does geographic location control gravity? or resistance due to water?

If you have a global flood of 'muddy waters' and 'wave action' does the sediment settle out in the US?, Europe?, Australia?, China?, Africa? South America?

Does the pencil fall and the sediment settle out the same in each place?

Does geographic location control gravity? or resistance due to water?

Now if the pencil falls and the sediment settles the same, the effect is the same.

So, as this is a science thread, please tell us how the same depositional environment, which is solely due to matter reacting to the force of gravity and resistance that are essentially exactly the same all over the globe, results in completely different structures and geologic formations depending upon the whim of geography.

Does the salt decide upon itself to settle here and the conglomerate to settle there? How would they know? Do they have little cellphones and irreducibly complex flagellums so they can not only get to where they need to be but can also coordinate their actions?

"if muddy waters and wave action are responsible for varves, and the muddy waters and wave action were global, then why isn't the earth covered in varves?"

Answer the question.

Edited by anglagard, : clarity, and a .001% hedge just in case someone actually decides to study gravimetric methods in geophysics


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by johnfolton, posted 12-28-2007 12:51 AM johnfolton has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 13362
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 103 of 119 (444074)
12-28-2007 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by johnfolton
12-27-2007 7:16 PM


Re: on models: Creationists Rock, etc...!!!!!!!!
reversespin writes:

Actually the creationists appear to me to be questioning science where evolution seems to be saying this is it and don't question it, etc...

Actually, this is geology, not evolution. You're in the geology forum now.

To question the scientific consensus, something scientists do all the time, you must do it the same way scientists do it, by gathering evidence for your position. Your position has no positive evidence, and it is contradicted by existing evidence. Specifically:

  1. For the most part, floods do not deposit material into repeated layers. Rather, they sort by particle size, with the largest, heaviest particles settling out first, and then as the energy of the flood waters declines smaller and smaller particles settle out. You need to explain how a world-wide flood could lay down repeated layers identical in every respect to the annual varves we see being deposited today, including seasonal contents such as pollen and seeds.

  2. If flood waters over a basin cause varves, then the world should be covered with basins filled with varves, but it isn't. You need to explain this.

  3. Natural physical processes like floods and springs cannot sort carbon-based materials that have different atomic weights. You need to provide a physical mechanism that can sort materials made up of different isotopes of carbon.

  4. This is off-topic, but I'll just mention that if a world-wide flood had wiped out all human settlements 4500 years ago, then archeology would be finding large numbers of human settlements whose habitation ended at about the same time. You have to explain why this isn't happening.

  5. This, too, is off-topic, more archeology, but why isn't there any evidence of a world-wide flood at human settlements that were continuously occupied through the flood period, such as Ur.

Your proposal is being rejected by people here not because it differs from current scientific views, but because current views have lots of evidence while your proposal has no evidence in its favor and much evidence against it.

Just to mention one more thing, you've mentioned several times that science should be researching varves, which is odd because there's a vast amount of scientific varve research. If you're having trouble finding it then just ask - there are people here who can provide references. You can also go to scholar.google.com and type in varves, it returns over 5000 references.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by johnfolton, posted 12-27-2007 7:16 PM johnfolton has not yet responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5145
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 104 of 119 (444085)
12-28-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by johnfolton
12-28-2007 12:32 AM


Re: on models: Its a Young earth folks !!!!, etc...!!!!!!!!
Ok, I'll bite where is the Grand Canyon delta?

At the north end of the Gulf of California. Without varves.


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by johnfolton, posted 12-28-2007 12:32 AM johnfolton has not yet responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 2538
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 105 of 119 (444093)
12-28-2007 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by johnfolton
12-28-2007 12:32 AM


Re: on models: Its a Young earth folks !!!!, etc...!!!!!!!!
Ok, I'll bite where is the Grand Canyon delta? rotflmao !!!!!!!

Evasion noted.

join the winning team become a creationists or at the very least the Intelligent Design movement. They all Rock !!!!! There the real thing, etc....

Lack of response.

Water has real weight though agree it does not really move but on shore the base of the wave crashes it sweeps stuff back out into the lake.

Irrelevant. Please focus.

I'm still waiting for how you explain spring water coming up from the bottom of the lake, how is it being recharged.

Are you serious?

Why not ask the question? Maybe someone here will decide that you deserve an answer after avoiding questions for the last week.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by johnfolton, posted 12-28-2007 12:32 AM johnfolton has not yet responded

  
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