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Author Topic:   magnetites, the old earth's ally
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 64 (6786)
03-14-2002 3:50 AM


Using the small extent of my intuition in the geological field, I have discovered a major and largely overlooked flaw in the theory of creationism, one that will probably never be mended. Here is a brief explanation.
I'm sure you'll know, magnetites are rocks that are attracted by the magnetic north.
here is how it works:
>>You have some cake batter
>>You put magnetic chocolate sprinkles on the batter
>>They arrange themselves north.
You bake the cake and they are then stuck permanently in that north-facing position.
This is a more human demonatration of what is constantly occures on our ocean's mid-atlantic ridges, on the sides of the rift valley (we learned all this in science today, and I did a little research for myself). Lava erupts from underwater volcanoes, carrying magnetites. The lava flows down the sides of the volcano and, and in this liquid, the magnetites align themselves with the magnetic north. The lava then cools and hardens, preserving the magnetites in their position, which is always facing to the magnetic north.
Now when scientists looked at core samples of the volcanoes, they found something that was unusual, something that completely baffled them. At close analyzation of the magnetites that had been preserved in the hardened lava, they found that some pointed to the current magnetic north, but others, sealed in deeper layers, pointed to what is today the south! They found changes in several layers. And they never found an exception to the patterns. How to explain this? Well, there are two theories:
1. The planet’s crust moved around the other side of the planet like the peel of an orange. Yet this would require a tremendous amout of force, and is thus unlikely to be resonsible for this anomaly.
2. The magnetic poles- well- moved, from one end of the earth to the other. Basically, something caused a polar flip, so that north was south and vice-versa. To put is even more simply, if you were holding a compass at the time of the flip, you would see the needle, pointing northm actually make a 360 degree turn to the south! But we can only guess what could cause this mind-boggling event.
Now looking back at the magnetites, and using disputed dating methods, we find that the last "polar flip", if that is what it was, occurred around 200,000,000 millions years ago. Do the math, and you find that 200,000,000 years is slightly less than 1/22 of the earth's age (4.5 billions years) in question.
Now here is where things start to get messy for those clever and unusually cunning creationists... According to them and their assertions, the earth is 6000-10000 years old. Assuming that this is true, the last magnetic flip occurred 272 years ago, because if you shrink 4.5 billion years of earth history into 6000 years, and then find 1/22 of 6000, you get 272. But to the untrained eye, this would be nonsense. Compasses had been invented 272 years ago, and ships and sailors were navigating the planet. I would imagine that these sailors, totally dependent on their compasses, would have noticed something out of the ordinary, had the magnetic poles flipped to the other side of the planet. But maybe that's just me.
Now let's look at the other scenario- a ten-thousand year-old earth. Here we get a polar flip about 454 years ago. Let's take a look at the world at this time- The New World has been discovered, and ships are sailing to Asia via south of the Africa. And yes, compasses were around- not the ideal scenario.
The compass, according to http://www.wavespring.com/justin/china/compass.html
was first discovered by the Chinese just a hundred or so years after the supposed birth of Jesus, and soon became "real" and usable in about 900 AD. The Europeans learned of the compass in the 15th century, or the 1400s. Of course, the last polar flip, depending on the creationist model, occurred between 270 and 450 years ago. not one single record of the magnetic poles flipping.
Of course, creationists could resond with their clich-like arguments-the magnetic poles flipped only a few thousand years ago, but C14, which dates the fossils of primitve animals older than the fossils of advanced beings with stunning and seemingly flawless precision, has made a mistake by a few hundred million years. If you ask me, this is a pretty unconvincing argument. Science dates these rocks, while creationists assume that these rocks are 100s of millions of times younger than they are said to be, and also formed before or just after the proposed date of the flood. Not based on any evidence, but based on speculation and ancient mythology.
Then of course, there is the outright denial that this data exists, or that the data is inaccurate, typical of less-scientifically immersed creationists. And so would begin a long duration of squawking, in which creationists would only get the chuckle from archaeologists and geologists of all calibres. Of course, the scientists would talk to them as they may to a child, explaining the symmetry at either sides of the volcanoes, and the perfect collaboration of either side, at which point the creationists would silently retreat to their reality resistant bomb shelter, ignoring evidence and truth.
So, in the opinion of the scientific community, which only works on hard evidence, the creationist model is irrelvant, unless a constituent can present polished evidence (using one of those long lost dating methods that indicate the earth is no older than 10000 years) that magnetites and the lava encompassing the former are indeed 4000 or so years old, which would be a few hundred years after Noah navigated the seas without the use of a compass. (Which would mean that between the creation of the planet and the last polar flip, the planet would have undergone magnetic facelifts a number of times, all causing drastic changes in the world's climate and having disastrous effects on the human population)
Or maybe someone could show us that not only did the continents split in one year at what must have been miraculous rates, but that they also moved around the entire planet, so that north was south and vice-versa, in what would have been a logic defying time.
Oh, that would be the day- a creationist proving science wrong
give it a break.
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-14-2002]
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-14-2002]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by quicksink, posted 03-14-2002 4:11 AM quicksink has not replied
 Message 5 by RetroCrono, posted 03-14-2002 7:07 AM quicksink has replied
 Message 13 by TrueCreation, posted 03-14-2002 4:45 PM quicksink has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 64 (6790)
03-14-2002 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by quicksink
03-14-2002 3:50 AM


I would be very appreciative if TC could give her opinion (or is it he???)
and PS- this information was obtained through a morally corrupt and brainwashed evolutionist drone, more commonly known as a science teacher. All data is property of the International Organization for the Propagation of God-defaming and Morally Unjust Theories, all rights reserved.
The organization reserves the right to assasinate you and your family if you know too much.
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-14-2002]
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-14-2002]
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-14-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by quicksink, posted 03-14-2002 3:50 AM quicksink has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Floris O, posted 03-14-2002 5:04 AM quicksink has replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 64 (6794)
03-14-2002 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Floris O
03-14-2002 5:04 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Floris O:
Now you ruined it, damnit! We were supposed to keep it secret, and after decades of hard work you blew it! Now we all have to become creationists
.

The guilt overwhelmed me- participating in a world-wide conspiracy to propagate false theories, defame god, and degrade social and moral values, while at the same time conducting time-consuming scientific research to plant false facts- all for a low salary- just drained the energy out of me.
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-14-2002]
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-14-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Floris O, posted 03-14-2002 5:04 AM Floris O has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 64 (6800)
03-14-2002 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by RetroCrono
03-14-2002 7:07 AM


Veery fair- I think I will find a reference, although I will say that I learned this in seventh-eighth period science from my science teacher. As I write this, my hands are covered in notes.
But for the sake of relability-
http://www.britannica.com/
this provides a scientifically technical definition- doesn't mean much.
http://www.britannica.com/ --> htt p://Encyclopedia Britannica | Britannica...< !--UE-->
Another for those who are very scientifically literate... not me.
http://www.britannica.com/
the above site provides articles from brittanica. If you look, you'll see a very small picture of a volcano, which is unfortunataely only available to premium members of Brittanica, which doesn't include me.
http://www.pilgrimpromo.com/
here is a creationist site that refers to magnetites. Unfortunately, they cling to their belief that there was a pre-flood vapor shield, which would have crushed all humans under intense atmospheric pressure.
But perhaps I have heard wrong from my teacher, or perhaps my teacher i'm wrong. I don't know... Could someone help me out here.
{Did my best shot at shortening the display forms of several long, messy URL's, to restore page width to normal - I can't figure out what the problem is with that 3rd one - Hope I didn't blotch the effort to badly - Adminnemooseus}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 09-17-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RetroCrono, posted 03-14-2002 7:07 AM RetroCrono has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by quicksink, posted 03-14-2002 8:45 AM quicksink has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 64 (6801)
03-14-2002 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by RetroCrono
03-14-2002 7:07 AM


quote:
Originally posted by RetroCrono:
quote:
Originally posted by:
Then of course, there is the outright denial that this data exists, or that the data is inaccurate, typical of less-scientifically immersed creationists.
Well, I'm not gonna deny that this is true, but can anyone give me some referrences to look into this. You've intrigued me to check this out. But, with only your word to go on at the moment, can anyone shoot me in the right direction to investigate this?
BTW, what causes a polar flip?

I was mistaken, but not so that my argument is weakened. According to http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/magneticfield990521.html (go to "edit", and "find on this page"-[last])
the last polar flip occurred 780,000 years ago. This is such a small part of earth's history, that squashing it into 6000 years would mean it happened a few days ago.
Or we could all assume that this polar flip occurred just before man discovered the compass, which would be around the time of jesus... all this based on absolutely keine evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RetroCrono, posted 03-14-2002 7:07 AM RetroCrono has not replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 64 (6802)
03-14-2002 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by quicksink
03-14-2002 8:20 AM


http://www.nasca.org.uk/Strange_relics_/reversal/reversal.html
this site reaffirms the "polar-flip", and stresses that it is long-overdue.
It also highlights the sheer catastrophe that such an event would cause. Surely, if this event did indeed occur, it would be, and I quote the site:
quote:
capable of destroying all life on Earth
If this event had occurred during the times of humans, all life would have been wiped out.
now I can see a coming rebuttle on the horizon- the flood was the result of this flip
well, there is a difference.
a) a flip would not cause torrential rains.
b) damage would be permanent, and a mere boat would not save anyone. That is, unless, god comes in and miraculously saves the planet from total destruction, which goes well beyond science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by quicksink, posted 03-14-2002 8:20 AM quicksink has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Joe Meert, posted 03-14-2002 9:38 AM quicksink has replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 64 (6806)
03-14-2002 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Joe Meert
03-14-2002 9:38 AM


i don't quite understand what you are trying to say...
but I ask how the flood could have caused reversals...
and i am very interested in this manetite issue... we are learning plate tectonics and our teacher did mention that the issue solidified the drifter's beliefs.
But how could a creationist consistently explain this unexplained phenomena? Because the scientific community is so eager for an answer, wouldn't they pay a little attention to the creationist's claims?
and as I did a little more prying, I found that the pattern of magnetic reversals is actually a method of dating, like c14 and the like. Could anyone confirm this?
(I found that information from: http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/hominid_succession_helen_lawrence.htm)
well, anyway
[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-14-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Joe Meert, posted 03-14-2002 9:38 AM Joe Meert has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Joe Meert, posted 03-14-2002 10:16 AM quicksink has replied

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 64 (6815)
03-14-2002 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Joe Meert
03-14-2002 10:16 AM


thanks for the clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Joe Meert, posted 03-14-2002 10:16 AM Joe Meert has replied

Replies to this message:
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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 64 (6984)
03-16-2002 2:46 AM


pushing

Replies to this message:
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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 64 (7464)
03-21-2002 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by TrueCreation
03-20-2002 11:30 PM


If I may contribute a bit to the debate
quote:
HOW MANY TIMES: Many, about half a million years apart on the average.
from:
http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/earthmag/magnQ&A1.htm#q6
This is very interesting. Now let's do a little math-
500,000,000 years of history divided by a 500,000 year interval for magnetic reversals, you get 1000 reversals.
Compress that into creationist time, and you have a reversal occurring every few hundred years. Wow!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by TrueCreation, posted 03-20-2002 11:30 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by TrueCreation, posted 03-21-2002 4:00 PM quicksink has not replied

  
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