Could the US become a theocracy ?

the Jefferson Bible?Certainly they would be horrified by the Religious Right.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

If he holds the presidency, does that not make him the President? I totally accept any criticism if I just bastardized some terminology. What on earth did you google? I entered "Balkenende eu values" and the first link was from the eu business site on the first conference.I went through other links as well gathering some for those that are interested. I was both heartened and disheartened by what I saw. I had not heard some of the conclusions coming out of them and who had been attending, so this was a bit of a good news thing for me.It appears it is less of an official EU function, that is legislators actively negotiating, than an EU financed moneydrain hoping to create a philosophical position from which to excite Europeans and drive legislation. In other words they could have saved everyone money and just opened up a thread here at EvC, titled "What is a European?" Maybe I'll write that in to somebody.In any case it appears that there are people critical of developing a unified value system, though it appears they are more concerned that it not be a unified secular value system. For example they seem to think secularism and that enlightenment derived values have proven to be failures because the French Revolution, the Holocaust, and WW2 all happened after them. Thus we should look for answers in newer or older ones. Uh, yeah.In any case here are some good links. This is an eubusiness article from which there is... This was a page with many documents, of which I could not cut and paste excerpts, so you should give some a once over to see where EU taxpayer's money is going.Here is a very brief excerpt from the 2nd page of the summary of the first convention.. This is a link to Balkenende's closing remarks. In it he recaps many of the different positions that were voiced. It appears there was a rejection of moral universalism by many, and I still am not sure if that is bad or good. This is an overview.This is another overview. And if you feel that there doesn't seem to have been much emphasis on religious values in the stuff you have seen so far, remember that this is Balkenende's agenda. Europeans don't want to talk about values like US evangelicals do, and this is his machine to begin the process. Get people comfortable with thinking our personal values are legitimate political topics.He is much more open about this within the Netherlands, though he still sneaks thing past many. Note the last two sentences of the above link. This is from a religious blogger. Some of it can be skipped over as it deals with just Xian stuff, but the beginning and end of the blog give you a better picture of Balkenende and the kind of stuff he is doing within Holland.Balkenende makes it very clear in dutch material (which I will not try an find links on unless you want me to) that he is concerned that the dutch get norms and values that are set and appear to be from an older more conservative time. Indeed he is concerned that everyone be seen as stemming from a Xian past and therefore always a Xian even if you don't go to church... how wound up is that?This is the kind of stuff pointed to in the blog.Interestingly he has openly said that they should no longer be tolerant of pot which has been a dutch value for quite a while. Oh yeah, he isn't cool with sex either, trying to end prostitution which has been around longer than pot. He raised some chuckles when he suddenly had it in for sex with animals and animal porn. It kind of came out of nowhere. And he successfully had a poster which lampooned him as a pornstar banned. Yes, in the Netherlands they do not have freedom of speech if it involves sex and making fun of a prominent citizen.He talks of tolerance and freedom, but then there is always respect, and that is what he hangs his repression on. Respect for others appears to be not offending others' sensibilities, and self respect means not doing things that other more conservative types do not want you doing.When polled, 70% of Dutch people said they would not invite him over for coffee. And this guy says his finger is on the pulse of the Dutch value system.(Edited in the following...) This is from the norms and values website that Balkenende created for the Dutch. Unfortunately it's in Dutch so you won't get anything out of the site itself. I was chilled to note that it is no spreading to other nations... gag.In any case, the page I linked to has a pdf file at the bottom titled "concluderde speech" or something like that. It is Balkenende's concluding speech at the final values conference. DEFINITELY DOWNLOAD AND READ the speech. He has switched from using "respect" to "responsibility", but otherwise his message is the same.It is interesting that near the beginning he says they decided that there is no one set of values, but by the end is repeating how important it is that they work policy from their shared values.And of course the final line of his speech is what I'm talking about: "Let's continue to build bridges between values and policies."That is his goal and exactly where democracies, if they are going to be practical, unfiying instruments, should avoid going. Personal values and politics should be kept far apart. That is what we come to the table with, not what should be placed on the table for debate.This message has been edited by holmes, 12-08-2004 06:25 PM

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

MT,The united under traditional christian values thing has been rumbling on for a while (especially during the Italian stint at the presidency), and I have seen it mentioned a few times in the paper (although from a liberal Indy 'look what could happen' perspective rather than a Daily Mail 'European Superstate taking away our bendy bananas' one).You should be right though, the issue will be well and truly scotched before it ever gets too hot. This is not only due to the church/state separation in places like France and Germany (as Mr Jack pointed out) - just look at the whole headscarf caffuffle - but also for a couple of other reasons: votes and money:1.An electorally significant minority of Europeans are not Christian, and such a move would really get up their noses.2.The rather popular (and no doubt profitable) push for Turkey to become an EU member would be in very serious jepardy.Just my opinion

Well, this is on the EU payroll, so no politician is going to turn down an offer to go to great hotels and talk about metaphysical concepts which require simple opinion and no real research. There is the money. The problem is not whether it is simply Xian values that are adopted, but the idea that any value system gets adopted by a gov't, especially as an identifier for its people.Think about that... if they do such a thing, Europeans are supposed to stay that way with those same values forever? The whole of European History has been about change of values. It has been naming a single value or set of values that has led to so many problems in the past.It is true the Balkenende would like to push the Xian value thing, but that is not his sole purpose. His main purpose is to get the debate back into politics, where it currently isn't because of all the tragedies Europeans have had when getting it involved in the past.Once accepted that values are a normal and necessary part of political discourse, that frees him and future evagelicals up from the verbal shackles they currently have in most European politics. He can talk about what is right and wrong, or good and bad, without embarassment and point to those "values" as the reason he can come to objective conclusions, and then we know which to label legislation we want passed.It's kind of a win-win situation for him.This is part of the whole dumbing down that is going on in the world and I can't stand it. Secular government was good. Values driven government is bad.If you haven't seen the links I posted on the topic, check out my post #47. Actually many pro-moral guys are for letting Turkey in, though some have certainly pointed out if it is Xian morals that are supposed to dominate, Turkey is an odd choice to enter into the system.Balkenende is for letting Turkey in, stating that religious differences are not supposed to matter. I'm not sure if this is his real position, or just the position he is assuming because Bush told him to. In any case he is for it, while at home fostering Xian values at home and backing some rather anti-islamic immigration measures. Perhaps he thinks that if Turkey is part of the EU, they won't have to move to the Netherlands anymore.This message has been edited by holmes, 12-08-2004 06:44 PM

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I'll give you the proper response your post deserves in the morning , but I would like to make a couple of points before going up the wooden hill.Firstly, I think you are underestimating the bedrock of religious tolerance that exists in Europe - maybe the result of hundreds of years of intolerance but there you go. There is a significant segment (probably a majority, but I have no hard and fast stats) of the population which wants no truck with the kind of views expressed by Balkenende and his ilk. Recently a EU commision was not voted in because the parliament (and therefore, arguably the electorate) objected to the bloke who was to be in charge of justice when he said that he thought homosexuality was a sin.Secondly, I would say that the emergence of values as a political tool is not a new thing, and not always a bad aspect of politics. It's when the (easy to articulate) values of nationalism and intolerance start to creep into politics that problems start - and I suspect this is what you percieve as the 'dumbing down' effect. Of course this is JMHO etc Thanks, I will.

Please won't someone think of the chidren. Can't let them have even a little freedom. Are you going to shield them all their lives?

This may be the case. I've often wondered why Germany, Italy, Japan and Russia all became dictatorships at approx. the same time.

quote:

---

This is not only due to the church/state separation in places like France and Germany (as Mr Jack pointed out) - just look at the whole headscarf caffuffle - but also for a couple of other reasons: votes and money:

---

I am not sure why it is thought that Germany has such an strong church/state separation tradition as France. One of the main political parties and the one that has spent the most time in power since WWII is the Christian Democratic Union. If you want a job that is in any way politically connected, you have to be a Xian to get it. The various Xian churches get tax money from the state. The only way to get out of paying part of your income tax directly to the church is to leave the church officially by applying, paying a processing fee, and informing the church where you were baptized that you are no longer a Xian (all of which I did as soon as I found out I was paying income tax to the Catholic church). None of this applies in France to my knowledge.And regarding the headscarf issue, the French handled the situation much better than the Germans. They banned headscarves, the crucifix, yamulka's and any other religious symbols being worn by state employees while performing their government functions. In Germany thay only banned headscarves but all Xian paraphenalia is allowed....and then people here wonder why foreigners don't integrate well in the country

quote:

---

I can see the issues, Mammuthus. For the religious conservative, children are victims of "original sin" and do not have the ability to make strong and right choices without guidence.

---

Cmon PB, this is not even logically consistent. So you are saying only children are victims of original sin but adults are not? So you as a pure perfect person have the right to restrict what your children do and even worse, what my children want to see, do or think? That is not conservative, that is fascist. You should turn it around, children have not been alive long enough to become such total unethical pricks that they should be guiding the adults in ethical behavior if you want to use total "sin content" as a measure.

quote:

---

For the liberal, guidence = restriction on freedom.

---

bullshit...who said anything about not offering guidance to children? the issue here is if you are allowed to impose your will on the children of OTHER people. You want to screw up your children for life, that is your choice and their misery...but imposing your beliefs on people who do not agree is un-American.

quote:

---

For the right wing religious, God Himself insists on an authority structure as the best outcome. Freedom without authority was the result of the original sin.

---

this is also what groups like the Taliban believe. So in essence conservatives hate the principles of freedom extolled by the US? That is what you are implying i.e. you are free to believe what a conservative believes= freedom.

quote:

---

I think that a government totally free from any religious morality would probably be the fairest on a democratic level. I also fear that such a system would not be in the best interests of the future of humanity. What a conundrum.

---

And what are the best interests of humanity? Theocracies engaged in crusades, mass murders, religious based conflict and hatred, trading in science for mysticism and charlatanism, jobs distributed by who prays the loudest, witholding information about the real world from children because of some 2000 year old mythology? Either you believe in freedom and democracy or you don't..you cannot be half pregnant. You either have enough faith in your own beliefs that they will sustain you even among a plural society full of people who disagree or your faith is so weak you have to impose it on everyone else by force.(fixed your quote /quote mistake.)PBThis message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-09-2004 04:30 AM

The American Constitution provides for a government free from any religious morality. If you disagree please cite the article that defines morality.How do you know what is in the best interests of humanity?

You both have good points. I cannot argue against what you say. I am just stirring the stew by representing the conservative side. I never claimed to be one.

Not that I don't agree with things you said, but I thought I should clarify... Intolerance always creeps in, using the disguise of some value which needs protecting. If it comes in as unexposed intolerance then it usually does get beat down.For instance in the US if Bush said he hated gays and didn't think they should be equals, he probably would have lost. There are enough conservatives which would have said that was not allowed. However, he is just fine saying that it is important that we protect the definition of marriage because of our shared values surrounding it.This is truly the modern face of oppression. I don't hate you, and I am not an ignorant bigot, I am only doing this to protect this thing we all care about due to our shared value system.And its amazing how often it coincides with religious values. I agree that it is not a new thing in general, but it is a relatively new thing specifically in modern European politics. References to personal faith and values have been notably absent from government affairs since WW2. That is what separated European from US politics. Less than three years ago it was a talking point in Europe about how Bush's personal belief references were embarrassing to hear and would not be tolerated in a government official.But of course now it is. This is the foot in the door. This is where we are made to feel comfortable hearing the kind of dreck falling from Bush's lips, but now with a European accent.I don't think the problem is just values of nationalism and intolerance. I mean those are problems as well, but the real problem is allowing values to have a connection to politics in the first place. When deciding a piece of legislation, it should not have to pass a "European values" test. It should be tested on whether it is a practical solution for a government to apply to a problem.The idea that a nation, or a collection of nations, must have some collective identity or it will become a "spiritless machine", is what moves through stages to eventually drive nationalism and intolerance, though by then the intolerance won't be noticed as that. It will be protecting our necessary identity. Otherwise without it, we will become a spiritless machine and we can't have that!In this case Balkie is hoping that the Europeans will end up settling on Xian values, even if (to him) they don't realize that they are actually Xian values. Then he smiles patronizingly for he has won. Just like Bush claiming that freedom and democracy are originally Xian values given by God.This is after all what he won an award for in the US... merging faith with government. It was funny when the papers here hailed the award as some sort of honor, thinking it was for some scientific achievement. I kept telling dutch people I knew it was for religion and they didn't seem to believe me. Then the papers did some research and found out it was actually for advancing religion into politics, and they all boo hooed. I told 'em so. To me the dumbing down effect is being created in a couple ways.The first is the increased use of major media as not only the primary, but only newssource by most people, combined with the major media's falling into a small group of wealthy people's hands looking for money over quality (news). News programs are now infotainment at best, with opinion thrown around as if fact.This creates a base stupidity, which is bad when many people start off not that bright.The next is the loss of pragmatic, solution driven thinking. Instead everyone is more concerned with how they and others should "feel" about something... anything. And it is the feelings and values that drive the agendas. And of course if facts get in the way, people do not want their personal beliefs crushed and so the facts are discounted. This is how legislation gets started an passed without much critical evaluation. This is a law which we just feel is right, it is in line with our values, and protects what is valuable to us.Bush calls this technique following his gut. It is in fact, willful ignorance.This is how theocracies, or other value-cracies get hold of power. Everyone decides that there is a common value system, and then allow those in charge to be arbitrators and protectors of that value system.To me it does not matter if it is Xian theocacy explicit, or the kinder gentler Xian derived value-cracy. The end is the same.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Uhhhhhh. I brought up the same things, and you never answered me. Indeed you haven't answered any of my posts for a bit.If you are not planning on responding to any of my posts in the future, will you please admit that my point was made regarding the ACLJ?

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

quote:

---

The next is the loss of pragmatic, solution driven thinking. Instead everyone is more concerned with how they and others should "feel" about something... anything. And it is the feelings and values that drive the agendas. And of course if facts get in the way, people do not want their personal beliefs crushed and so the facts are discounted. This is how legislation gets started an passed without much critical evaluation. This is a law which we just feel is right, it is in line with our values, and protects what is valuable to us.

---

While I agree with much of what your well written post says, one issue that I think counterbalances some of these forces of "identity" and "values" is that in European politics (especially in Germany) there are many competing groups with radically different views. The CDU/CSU is probably using the "values" and "patriotism" issue as a pure political ploy to steal votes from the far right parties like the NPD and DVU who have been doing well in East German states lately. It seems there tactic now is to tack far enough right to pull away some of the right wing nuts since the ruling SPD is losing votes to the far left (PDS pseudo-commies) which the CDU/CSU would never pick up anyway. The left and the Greens are split on all sorts of issues as well. Then you have the unions which are a de facto political party with a completely different agenda. So appeals for values and patriotism while really stupid won't work quite so well in most of the EU as it does in the US which is a two party system with two right wings anyway (Gore Vidal quote I believe).However, by doing it as you demonstrated, undercover and using stealth tactics, over time the danger for the EU is also very real.

I agree. The parlaimentary multi-party system has impressed me quite a bit. It also allows for quick reversal of fortunes for all major parties, and that is something which is impossible in the US.Unfortunatly I think the EU gov't is not the same as what we see at the local national levels of europe. Especially with the more powerful non-elected sections of EU, it seems that there is really no check at all on who goes in and what happens.I think the people of Europe really need to nix the non-elected portions of their uber-gov't.By the way I loved your post to PB. That lambasting on the sin of children vs adults was especially great. Also, is porn open to the public (ie viewable by all on the street) in Germany the way it is in the Netherlands and Denmark? I have been there but not long enough to notice.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)