Belief...a choice?

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I think that for most people choosing a religious belief is more complex and takes longer than choosing say which item on a menu to get, or even what car to purchase.

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If we are talking about the majority of religious people as a whole, then I disagree that they choose at all.The vast majority of religious people simply practice the religion, or something close to it, that they were raised to believe.That's why you see communities which have always been Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim pretty much stay Christian, Jewish, and Muslim if there aren't a lot of people coming and going.

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And if what you believe does not make you happy, what's the point?

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I would rather my beliefs (or lack thereof) make me uncomfortable than content myself with a lie.

I agree with you on that. I was thinking about people who for whatever reason find themselves in a position where they are questioning and attempting to choose a belief system for themselves. I think they are a minority but I've no idea what percentage.lfen

Schraf, I think you have hit the nail on the head.Of course, if individuals really made a choice there would be no such grouping of religious beliefs. Communities would be a complex mix of all types.The grouping shows that you are right. Religious belief is, generally, not a choice that individuals make at all. It is made for them by their parents.

A lie by any other name smells just as sweet.
You see a lie from your perch, I do not from mine.
So, what do you say. Shall you refrain from judgment and let me engage in the pursuit of happiness according to my want?

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"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

I think Schrafinator was not criticizing your choice as much as stating that the uncomfortable truth is better than a comfortable lie. (not so sure I completely agree). But the problem is that the Christians can't refrain from judgement. Christ told everyone to preach the gospel throughout the whole earth. You can't point out the right way without making people realize that you think their way is wrong. Is that not judgement? I think much of the retoric in this forum that is critical of Christians is more reactionary than an assault. Most of the people here don't care that you believe in Christ's Way or pink unicorns as long as you let them believe what they want without telling them how screwed they are going to be after they die.And after that little rant, I still can't find anyone who can show me how I can choose to believe something (2+2=5, pink unicorns, invisible elves that fart on your pumpkin pies...etc) that I cannot rationalize as true from the evidence presented to me.I don't see how you can choose what you believe, although I can understand how belief can be instilled through upbringing. The Bible even states to do this. Proverbs 22:6 Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.
I can even understand that influence as a child can cause someone to believe later in life without realizing the impetus of that belief.

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"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

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A lie by any other name smells just as sweet. You see a lie from your perch, I do not from mine. So, what do you say. Shall you refrain from judgment and let me engage in the pursuit of happiness according to my want?

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It is not my intent to keep you from your happiness.Remember, though, that you said:And if what you believe does not make you happy, what's the point?I explained to you that, for me, I would rather know an uncomfortable truth than deceive myself with a comforting lie.I would much, much rather spend my mental efforts in thinking well rather than feeling good.That is "the point", for me.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-29-2004 07:14 AM

Thank you for your thoughts.
Whatever it is she meant, I did not interpret it to mean that she is fine with my beliefs. My beliefs are not her concern. You may go from the beginning of my posts to this one, and you will not find a single one that suggests to non-believers in Christ that they must believe, or else.
The primary directive is 'go ye into all the world', please note that it does not say to bring a sledgehammer. Corrupting this directive is entirely the product of the corrupt who forget that Christ has sheep in other flocks, and so on.
As for being told how screwed they are after they die, is a product of doctrines and not biblical writings. In such an event, it behooves one to know the difference, and the non-believers should simply shrug it off as bunk.

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"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

Thank you so much for the thought.I'm happy you have found your comfort level, but you intimate that the way I have found mine is inferior to yours.----------I explained to you that, for me, I would rather know an uncomfortable truth than deceive myself with a comforting lie.I would much, much rather spend my mental efforts in thinking well rather than feeling good.------------I won't even ask why you thought it necessary to make this statement.As for me and my house, we will and do serve the Lord.

I am not implying that you are weilding any WMD's to convince the great unwashed of the immovability of the Rock upon which you stand. However, this verse (different translations below) indicates more action than you say that you use.{NIV}Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.{KJV}Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you {AMP}Matthew 28:19-20 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you,Admittedly, It does not say specifically to use a sledgehammer, but that method is not excluded either. Some groups use more heavy handed methods to "make desciples". They scare you: "Lake of Fire"; insult you: Psalm 53:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. ; and hate you:, "God Hates Fags". But I find little support upon which I can base belief and, BTW, I am looking earnestly for it.But that's just me.Perhaps you can provide me with some examples of others choosing to believe in something despite evidence against it or with a dearth of evidence for it, OR, better yet no evidence at all. It does not have to be religious belief. Anything that shows someone choosing to change their beliefs, without a change in evidence for/against that belief, will do.Just to get back on topicThis message has been edited by LinearAq, 11-29-2004 09:23 AM

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"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

I googled 'what people believe' and found a few things that may interest you, so help yourself.
It amuses me to see comments such as 'if it doesn't actually say not to use a sledgehammer, the decision is up to the wielder to use or not to use'.
The disciples, when Christ sent them out two by two, did not even take food or money.
Christ is ever the example, and only example. If he used a sledgehammer to get a point across, it's ok.

Then it is ok to call nonbelievers fools.Do you fashion cords into whips to get people to stop doing wrong things, such as selling items, at inflated(?) prices, in the temple?How about addressing the topic at hand...ie Can we choose what we believe?I'll look at 'what people believe' in google...sounds amusing.

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"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

yes, you can most certainly choose what you want to believe, who is going to stop you?You can even believe that you are qualified to judge the floggees before you flog. I could barely wait for you to bring that up.I do hope you will be more amused than you have ever been.My best and all good wishes to you.

Not who but what. The answer is: my incredulity when the facts are presented.You seem to think that you can change your beliefs by a force of will despite the input of your senses or your rational mind. Then I guess you can change your belief so that those invisible elves are now real...no more pumpkin pie for you!! Perhaps I could give you 2 two-dollar bills for a five? You won't notice once you change your belief in the addition of even numbers.To choose to follow, once you believe, is one thing (I think that is what you are referring to), to actually choose to believe is another.Seriously, the crux of this matter is that some don't believe based upon their logical processing of the facts presented. So, how do you reach those folks? They aren't choosing not to follow Christ, they say that they don't see enough evidence that Christ is the Son of God...that a Holy Spirit exists....or Bible God even exists. They truly can not make that leap. So now they are being judged by God for what they can't help? Not being convinced is a sin or disobedience? Some of this sounds a bit off-topic but it emphasises the point. If belief is a choice, then non-belief is disobedience. I just don't see how it can be a choice. Do you have an example perhaps? Could barely wait but still blew me off with a flip reply. So, it is not ok for Christians to judge some actions (selling religious necessities for excessive profit) but ok for Christians to judge others (homosexuality, drinking,lack of belief in a divine Christ)? You brought up WWJD. I just provided examples of what He had done.

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"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

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To choose to follow, once you believe, is one thing (I think that is what you are referring to), to actually choose to believe is another.

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Seriously, the crux of this matter is that some don't believe based upon their logical processing of the facts presented. So, how do you reach those folks? They aren't choosing not to follow Christ, they say that they don't see enough evidence that Christ is the Son of God...that a Holy Spirit exists....or Bible God even exists. They truly can not make that leap. So now they are being judged by God for what they can't help? Not being convinced is a sin or disobedience?

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Thank you! This is what I've been trying to say - especially the first part - but I'm afraid I suffer from a rather constant tip-of-the-tongue phenomenon.I'd like to add, however, that it is also a possibility that some people can believe that which the observable evidence disputes (after all, as we can clearly see on this forum, people have drastically different thought processes), but I still question whether or not they are choosing to do so.Furthermore, even if they are, why should the ability of some to choose their belief overrule the inability of others? If there is even one person in the world who cannot choose his or her beliefs, doesn't that make a system that requires belief (with the alternative of eternal punishment) unjust?This message has been edited by Morte, 11-29-2004 05:18 PM