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Author Topic:   Long build up of Sediments
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 180 (294928)
03-13-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Percy
03-13-2006 12:12 PM


Re: Many mountains are much more of a mess, than just being a pile of horizontal strata
Yes that is one of the charts I have. {abe; In fact I have posted the link to it many times at EvC in previous discussions}
What is the point you are trying to make?
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-13-2006 12:41 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Percy, posted 03-13-2006 12:12 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Percy, posted 03-13-2006 2:11 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 180 (294930)
03-13-2006 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Percy
03-13-2006 12:12 PM


Re: Many mountains are much more of a mess, than just being a pile of horizontal strata
The miscommunications seem to be compounding and I'm trying to give this thread a rest anyway. Since that is one of my favorite diagrams of the area and I've posted it myself many times obviously you are answering the wrong question and something is not getting understood.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-13-2006 01:06 PM

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 123 of 180 (294938)
03-13-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
03-13-2006 1:05 PM


Re: Many mountains are much more of a mess, than just being a pile of horizontal strata
The image shows quite a bit of interesting geology has gone on outside what is visible on the valley's surface, but important to discussion at hand would be erosion of layers. You can clearly see whole sections of strata have been removed. Thus there is an example of how a layer laid down may have portions from the top removed before further deposition.
But if that is not pertinent to your question, let's not worry about that.
Why not take this opportunity to clarify the question, using this specific cross-sectional map?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 124 of 180 (294940)
03-13-2006 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Silent H
03-13-2006 4:24 AM


Re: Many mountains are much more of a mess, than just being a pile of horizontal stra
quote:
Just to let you know, her question was in response to a simplified example I had started with in trying to walk her step by step through the sediment issue. Unfortunately at each step she then wants to run toward a final conclusion. It's sort of like breaking a horse.
As a comment from someone who has actually "broken" in a horse to the bridle and saddle, this is a decent analogy, especially when retraining ex-racehorses.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 125 of 180 (294945)
03-13-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
03-13-2006 12:38 PM


Re: Many mountains are much more of a mess, than just being a pile of horizontal strata
Faith writes:
What is the point you are trying to make?
In Message 109 you expressed doubt that thick sediments could have experienced significant erosion (I've bolded the portion I was responding to):
Faith in Message 109 writes:
I don't have a problem with gigantic amounts of material, I have a SPECIFIC problem with the SPECIFIC sediments in the SPECIFIC layers of the geo column, especially if I am told they USED to be a lot thicker than they are now but got eroded down to present thickness from some rather astounding former thickness.
If you look on the left side of your chart at Cedar Breaks you'll see a number of layers about 1.5 miles thick that are not present on the right side of your chart at the Grand Canyon. You can't quite make out the names, but the topmost layer at Cedar breaks appears to be Brian Head, beneath that Claron, beneath that Kaiparowits, and so forth down to the thick maroon layer whose name I can't read. Those layers appear to be about 1.5 miles thick, and they are all absent at the Grand Canyon, completely eroded away.
--Percy

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 Message 121 by Faith, posted 03-13-2006 12:38 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 180 (295044)
03-13-2006 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Percy
03-13-2006 2:11 PM


That Grand Canyon diagram
I'm very aware of all that on that chart and consider it very suggestive of what happened to all the accumulated strata at the end of the flood. It appears that all over the southwest the strata built up layer by layer and then after the entire stack was in place magma pushed up from below which opened the cracks that became the canyons, and draining waters washed across the stack and eroded huge quantities of it away, leaving the Grand Staircase, leaving the Grand Canyon, and all the other odd formations of the southwest, the various pillars and so on that are everywhere. In other words massive erosion happened to the whole area at once after the whole stack was laid down. Looks to me like some massive water event laid down the layers rather neatly considering, and then at the end of it, some shift in the terrain perhaps, or just the draining of the waters away in rather a rush perhaps, removed great chunks of what had been built up.
That's a different thing from the idea that each individual layer lost great quantities of its substance by erosion before the next layer was laid down. And to look at that diagram with its neatly parallel stack of layers that cover miles of territory it is hard to believe that erosion of each layer would have left such neat regular layers.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-13-2006 11:44 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-13-2006 11:45 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-13-2006 11:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Percy, posted 03-13-2006 2:11 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by edge, posted 03-13-2006 11:55 PM Faith has replied
 Message 138 by roxrkool, posted 03-14-2006 9:19 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 139 by Percy, posted 03-14-2006 9:40 AM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 127 of 180 (295049)
03-13-2006 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
03-13-2006 11:43 PM


Re: Many mountains are much more of a mess, than just being a pile of horizontal strata
I'm very aware of all that on that chart and consider it very suggestive of what happened to all the accumulated strata at the end of the flood. It appears that all over the southwest the strata built up layer by layer and then after the entire stack was in place magma pushed up from below which opened the cracks that became the canyons, and draining waters washed across the stack and eroded huge quantities of it away, leaving the Grand Staircase, leaving the Grand Canyon, and all the other odd formations of the southwest, the various pillars and so on that are everywhere.
Um, no. We are saying that erosion and non-deposition occurred during the formation of the whole package, at numerous points in the history of deposition. Even with in the layers.
In other words massive erosion happened to the whole area at once after the whole stack was laid down. Looks to me like some massive water event laid down the layers rather neatly considering, and then at the end of it, some shift in the terrain perhaps, or just the draining of the waters away in rather a rush perhaps, removed great chunks of what had been built up.
And your evidence for this is?
That's a different thing from the idea that each individual layer lost great quantities of its substance by erosion before the next layer was laid down.
Yes it is, but the evidence says that this happened in some cases.
And to look at that diagram with its neatly parallel stack of layers that cover miles of territory it is hard to believe that erosion of each layer would have left such neat regular layers.
It didn't. What you are seeing is a simplification of the structures, designed to show the distribution of rock types.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 03-13-2006 11:43 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 128 by Faith, posted 03-13-2006 11:59 PM edge has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 128 of 180 (295050)
03-13-2006 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by edge
03-13-2006 11:55 PM


Re: Many mountains are much more of a mess, than just being a pile of horizontal strata
Still looks like what it looks like.

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 Message 127 by edge, posted 03-13-2006 11:55 PM edge has not replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 180 (295052)
03-14-2006 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by edge
03-13-2006 11:55 PM


Ever try to eat the cheese out of a grilled cheese sandwich ...
without disturbing the bread?
How do you eroded layers from between two other layers, one above and one below?
Wouldn't you have to erode the layer, then put the other layer on top?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 130 of 180 (295065)
03-14-2006 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
03-13-2006 11:59 PM


Simplified diagram
Still looks like what it looks like.
As has been pointed out to you many times; what you are looking at is a simplified diagram. It is not what is found when the rocks are examined as our geologist friends here have pointed out many times.
It shows a general view of the organization of major parts NOT the details that need to be discussed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 03-13-2006 11:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by crashfrog, posted 03-14-2006 12:51 AM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 03-14-2006 1:39 AM NosyNed has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 131 of 180 (295067)
03-14-2006 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by NosyNed
03-14-2006 12:46 AM


Re: Simplified diagram
Astoundingly, Faith still refuses to actually step outside and look at the sediments.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 180 (295073)
03-14-2006 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by NosyNed
03-14-2006 12:46 AM


Simplified diagram is a cop out
I'm sorry, let's get this straight. I absolutely refuse to believe that that carefully drawn diagram is "simplified" to the point of falsifying the basic overall impression of the parallel strata. There would be no reason for the draftsperson NOT to do as close a rendering of the actuality as possible given the scale and format. That's a cop out.
Or to sum up, FOCUSING ON THE DETAILS is a cop out. The overall structure is the point of what I'm talking about.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-14-2006 02:04 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 180 (295075)
03-14-2006 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
03-14-2006 12:09 AM


Re: Ever try to eat the cheese out of a grilled cheese sandwich ...
Yes, how could a large quantity of an individual layer be eroded from BETWEEN layers without seriously deforming the whole stack?
The most erosion possible between the layers seems to me would be from whatever water might still be getting squeezed out of the wet sediments, and, seeking an escape, might dislodge some of the surface sediments at the interface between two separate sediments. I believe the actual degree of erosion between the layers that I've seen represented at some time or other suggests just that sort of scenario.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-14-2006 01:52 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-14-2006 02:05 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 03-14-2006 12:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-14-2006 3:00 AM Faith has replied
 Message 140 by jar, posted 03-14-2006 9:43 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 134 of 180 (295088)
03-14-2006 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
03-11-2006 8:46 AM


I think that here is one of Faith's mistakes.
quote:
So if the Mississippian "period" took 50 million years to form, as one of my charts of the Grand Canyon says it did, which is nothing but "redwall" limestone, and according to Wikipedia from 450 to 525 feet thick in the canyon, rounding it to 500 feet means it accumulated about a foot in 100,000 years. That's a pretty slow rate of deposition.
Here are the simple problems with the claim that I know about:
1) Lithification involves compression - the oriignal sediment would have been thicker.
2) The Redwall limestoen has been eroded and is thinner because of that - And of course, the erosion indicates a period where there was no net depositon.
3) The Redwall is not uniform. Nor is it a single stratum as Faith seems to believe. A more detailed description is found here:
The Redwall is divided into four members: the Whitmore Wash, Thunder Springs, Mooney Falls, and Horseshoe Mesa members. The Whitmore Wash is nearly pure calcium carbonate (98% pure). The Thunder Springs member consists of alternating layers of chert and carbonate. The Mooney Falls member is once again almost totally pure calcium carbonate (99.5%). The Horseshoe Mesa member consists of thinly-bedded carbonate with occasional chert lenses
Another significant point mentioned is:
...the base of the Redwall contains a conglomerate of angular limestone and dolomite blocks derived from the underlying Temple Butte
Which clearly indicates that the lower strata mentioned had been lithified and partly broken up prior to the deposition of the Redwall formation. How does that fit into a Flood scenario ?t

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 135 of 180 (295092)
03-14-2006 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
03-14-2006 1:45 AM


Erosion is a surface process
I don't have the greater context of the point, but apparently Jar is trying to point out that erosion DOES NOT happen between already in place sedimentary layers - Erosion does not happen beneath the top surface of the total sediment pile.
Now, erosion may happen during the time period after one strata is deposited and before the next strata is deposited. Indeed, in many cases erosion is happening at one spot, only to have the sediment immediately redeposited right close by. Think a modern river or beach. Sediment is moving around - If a particle is moved from a rest position, it is erosion; If a particle comes to rest from movement, it is deposition. Thus, in detail, many sediments may be chock full of errosional surfaces, which, of course, are the depositional surfaces of what lies above.
Now a phrase along the lines of "errosion has happened between layers" might actually be used, but it is meaning that the existing sediments were eroded prior to the next sediments up being deposited.
Very minor disclaimer to the above info: There are such a thing as sediment "volcanos" and sediment dikes (dykes to the British sorts). This happens when the sediments contain enough fluids to behave as a fluid (think quicksand). In such cases, sediments can be squeezed from locations below, either into the above sediments or even out onto the sediment surfaces. I think this is a very minor effect in the geologic record.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
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