Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 160 (8170 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-28-2014 12:58 PM
65 online now:
Coyote, DrJones*, edge, jar, NoNukes, PaulK (6 members, 59 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: MarkG
Happy Birthday: Raphael
Post Volume:
Total: 742,227 Year: 28,068/28,606 Month: 3,125/2,244 Week: 529/710 Day: 29/76 Hour: 5/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
202122
23
2425Next
Author Topic:   Was there a worldwide flood?
Percy
Member
Posts: 13362
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 331 of 372 (511108)
06-06-2009 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Peg
06-06-2009 12:42 AM


I think what you're trying to say is that for all we know, the current state of the world is not the normal state and that we could be in the middle of a world wide flood right now. I'm not going to address this argument because in the context of this discussion "world wide flood" means the entire world covered by water at the same time. The opening post states, "There is plenty of evidence that the flood happened just like the Bible says." That's pretty clear.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Peg, posted 06-06-2009 12:42 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 1218 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 332 of 372 (511121)
06-06-2009 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Peg
06-06-2009 12:50 AM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
Your original claim in Message 303 was about the skull.
Even though the fragments Richard Leakey found were dated to 2.5 million years old, the skull was the same shape as modern man.
When asked to cite your source you provide:
quote:
"Unresolved is the relationship of the new find to Homo Habilis who's bone fragments were found in Olduvial Gorge 500 miles south of Lake Rudolf in a layer 1.75 million years old. The hand bones of this species suggested a dexterity approaching that of modern man and Dr Clarke suspects the new find may be an earlier form of homo habilis. However the brain chamber of this only measured 656 cubic centermeters compared to Mr Leakeys estimate of 800 for the newly peiced together skull"

How does one get from the cite to the claim? In future, could you provide a google map along with your citations?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Peg, posted 06-06-2009 12:50 AM Peg has not yet responded

Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5145
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 333 of 372 (511130)
06-06-2009 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by Peg
06-06-2009 1:17 AM


Or underwater reefs such as the one found in the Australian desert areas such as the Flinders Ranges Oodnaminta Reef

That's one of those features, like the Horseshoe Reef 2 km below my chair, that make the idea of a one-year flood and a young earth completely ludicrous, Peg.

How do reefs form?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Peg, posted 06-06-2009 1:17 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 1218 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 334 of 372 (511143)
06-06-2009 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Peg
06-06-2009 12:50 AM


Ah!
On page 27 of your link, in what looks like a newspaper article bylined Walter Sullivan, the second paragraph reads:
The fragments, making up a skull with striking resemblances [sic] to that of modern man, were found in a layer of material that had been deposited about 2.6 million years ago.

But if one reads the next few paragraphs one can see that, in context, this skulls striking resemblance is only so comparatively.

"Richard Leaky, co-leader of the expedition that found the bones, said the skull seemed to displace two other man-like creatures widely thought to represent the early stages in mans development.

One of them, a beetle-browed type known as Homo erectus, lived far more recently about a million years ago yet is less like modern man than the newly found skull.

The other reputed ancestor, Australopithecus, an ape-like man that walked relatively erect, lived 2.5 to 3 million years ago. It now appears to have been a contemporary of the more modern-looking type, rather than ancestral to the men of today.

Nowhere, however, have I been able to find the claim to the skull being the same shape as modern mans.

AbE: Though it was never evidence for your flood, you now have one less evidence against reality.

Edited by lyx2no, : Fix link.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Peg, posted 06-06-2009 12:50 AM Peg has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 16135
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 335 of 372 (511202)
06-07-2009 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Peg
06-06-2009 12:30 AM


old newspaper articles and modern information
hey peg, bluescat48, lyx2no2, etc,

Could you give me the reference to the above?

here is a link to the article
Lake Rudolph Skull Fragments

This is an old newspaper article about the finding of a skull now known as Homo rudolfensis, and you can compare the pictures of the skull in the article to the one here:

http://anthropology.si.edu/humanorigins/ha/er1470.html

quote:
ER 1470 was originally thought to have been a representative of the species Homo habilis, apparently vindicating Louis Leakey's long-held belief that large-brained members of the genus Homo existed in eastern African millions of years ago. The specimens cranial capacity of 775cc, is well in excess of earlier australopith brain size. The fossil was shown to Louis only several days before his death. But Richard Leakey, leader of the expedition which uncovered the skull, refused to firmly place ER 1470 into a species, listing it only as "Homo sp." or "genus Homo, but species indeterminate."

In the years that followed, as more examples of Homo habilis emerged, its assignment to the species H. habilis became a subject of debate. When compared with other Homo habilis specimens, such as KNM ER 1813 several morphological features differ from the classic habilis pattern. For example, in ER 1470, there is only a slight supraorbital torus without a depression behind it.

Many researchers now place ER 1470 within the species Homo rudolfensis along with several other early human fossils that had previously been assigned to H. habilis.


This is "F" in the picture below:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/hominids.html

quote:

Click to enlarge

Figure 1.4.4. Fossil hominid skulls. Some of the figures have been modified for ease of comparison (only left-right mirroring or removal of a jawbone). (Images 2000 Smithsonian Institution.)
  • (A) Pan troglodytes, chimpanzee, modern
  • (B) Australopithecus africanus, STS 5, 2.6 My
  • (C) Australopithecus africanus, STS 71, 2.5 My
  • (D) Homo habilis, KNM-ER 1813, 1.9 My
  • (E) Homo habilis, OH24, 1.8 My
  • (F) Homo rudolfensis, KNM-ER 1470, 1.8 My
  • (G) Homo erectus, Dmanisi cranium D2700, 1.75 My
  • (H) Homo ergaster (early H. erectus), KNM-ER 3733, 1.75 My
  • (I) Homo heidelbergensis, "Rhodesia man," 300,000 - 125,000 y
  • (J) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Ferrassie 1, 70,000 y
  • (K) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Chappelle-aux-Saints, 60,000 y
  • (L) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Le Moustier, 45,000 y
  • (M) Homo sapiens sapiens, Cro-Magnon I, 30,000 y
  • (N) Homo sapiens sapiens, modern

Message 303

well the sediments are not consistent in the case of the Omo valley and Lake Rudolph. Even though the fragments Richard Leakey found were dated to 2.5 million years old, the skull was the same shape as modern man. He said that other bone fragments that were found such as the leg specimens were indistinguishable from the same bones of modern men.

but they were still dated to be 2.5 million years old.

As you can see from the above picture, the skull is clearly placed at an intermediate level of development along the trend of evolution from (B), Australopithecus africanus to (N), Homo sapiens, or (M) Homo sapiens, CroMagnon, at 30kyr old.

Further you can compare it to this 160,000 year old Homo sapiens skull and see that even then the brain capacity was significantly greater than is exibited by Homo rudolfensis:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/06/11_idaltu.shtml

quote:
HsapiensAdultFE_med.jpg`
The fossilized skulls of two adults and one child discovered in the Afar region of eastern Ethiopia have been dated at 160,000 years, making them the oldest known fossils of modern humans, or Homo sapiens.

The skulls, dug up near a village called Herto, fill a major gap in the human fossil record, an era at the dawn of modern humans when the facial features and brain cases we recognize today as human first appeared.


These Homo sapiens skulls fit between (I) and (M) in the picture above (J, K and L being neanders), close to (M).

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : s

Edited by RAZD, : time for bed

Edited by Admin, : Shorten long link.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Peg, posted 06-06-2009 12:30 AM Peg has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4675
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 336 of 372 (511203)
06-07-2009 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Peg
06-06-2009 12:30 AM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
No matter what the article says, do you not think that scholarship on the origins of man may have changed a little in almost 40 years? Never mind that you don't bother to read the whole article and pck and choose the quotes that remotely support you, the study of the origin of man has changed immensely since 1972.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Peg, posted 06-06-2009 12:30 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4675
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 337 of 372 (511204)
06-07-2009 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Peg
06-06-2009 12:30 AM


Re: Worldwide flood -- not
Author of this book is an interesting guy.

Source

Dr Ben is founder and high priest in the Craft of Amen-Ra and holds the title/rank of 360 Grand Master in the Craft of Amen-Ra.[citation needed] He has made clearly pseudo-historical claims such as Aristotle traveling to Egypt with Alexander the Great to retrieve information from the library at Alexandria, despite of the fact that the library was constructed long after the deaths of both Aristotle and Alexander.

Hard to take him as real reputable if he peddles this nonsense.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Peg, posted 06-06-2009 12:30 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2615
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 338 of 372 (511232)
06-08-2009 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Peg
06-05-2009 8:24 AM


Genetics and Pigs
Hi, Peg.

Peg writes:

one example is at Africa's Lake Rudolph and the Omo Valley (200kms away) where sediment layers were not consistent with each other. They were dated to the same period, but the pig fossils they found at each location were not the same type of pig fossil.

I can probably find fifty species of spider in a 10-acre field. Does this mean that different parts of the field are currently in different periods of time.

-----

Peg, post #284, writes:

...and there is evidence that the DNA you are talking about is found in all the people around the earth...not only the North Americans.

This is untrue. The same haplogroups are found in populations across the world, but the haplotypes, which are smaller branches of the haplogroups are not found outside of North America, but is found in the 10,000-year-old fossil Coyote was talking about.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Peg, posted 06-05-2009 8:24 AM Peg has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by pandion, posted 06-08-2009 6:24 PM Blue Jay has responded

TruthIsNeverTooHorrible
Member (Idle past 1854 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 06-08-2009


Message 339 of 372 (511267)
06-08-2009 6:07 PM


*** GEOLOGIC TIMESCALE *** maximally reduced to SIX words.

As many missing links found as as many generated ages.
One simple fact maximally reduces the illuminati GEOLOGIC TIMESCALE, as explained in 2000 by the last of End Time Prophets.

ALL [ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ] are the [ _ _ _ _] age

As of today Google only finds TWO pages with the exact six words.

Hint about the first word:
[ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ] is the reason why the reduction of all the illuminati geologic ages does not return 0 but 1 age.


Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Coyote, posted 06-08-2009 9:40 PM TruthIsNeverTooHorrible has not yet responded
 Message 344 by roxrkool, posted 06-09-2009 12:10 AM TruthIsNeverTooHorrible has not yet responded

  
pandion
Member
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 340 of 372 (511270)
06-08-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Blue Jay
06-08-2009 1:34 PM


Re: Genetics and Pigs
Bluejay writes:

I can probably find fifty species of spider in a 10-acre field. Does this mean that different parts of the field are currently in different periods of time.


African pigs are not spiders. African pigs tend to wander farther and faster. Please refer to post 301. Pig fossils were indeed how the problem with the dating of the KBS tuff was brought to light. They also helped in identifying the same strata across some distance. As noted, African pigs are quite useful as index fossils. As suggested, read "Bones of Contention" by Roger Lewin. While most of what Peg has to say is worth a chuckle, in this one case she is spot on - east African pig fossils are excellent index fossils.

Edited by pandion, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Blue Jay, posted 06-08-2009 1:34 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Blue Jay, posted 06-08-2009 11:34 PM pandion has responded

Coyote
Member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 341 of 372 (511283)
06-08-2009 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by TruthIsNeverTooHorrible
06-08-2009 6:07 PM


Welcome
Welcome.

But posting gibberish is frowned upon.

Please try again and maybe we'll see if there is anything to your argument.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by TruthIsNeverTooHorrible, posted 06-08-2009 6:07 PM TruthIsNeverTooHorrible has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by RAZD, posted 06-08-2009 11:11 PM Coyote has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 16135
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 342 of 372 (511287)
06-08-2009 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Coyote
06-08-2009 9:40 PM


games
Curiously I can reduce it to three words with

|G _ _ | _ _ _ | _ _ | ... the usual YEC end gambit,

god did it

or to two words with:

| _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | ... for the rest of us.

try reality

Let's play hangman eh?

Enjoy.

Off-topic blather hidden - Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Coyote, posted 06-08-2009 9:40 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 2615
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 343 of 372 (511290)
06-08-2009 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by pandion
06-08-2009 6:24 PM


Re: Genetics and Pigs
Hi, Pandion.

The point wasn't that pigs aren't useful index fossils, or even that Peg's example is invalid: the point was that Peg is failing to actually present the argument. How can we carry on a debate when Peg is only saying, "the pig fossils are not the same type"?

-----

P.S. Spiders regularly cross entire oceans by ballooning on threads of silk, and thereby colonized the Pacific Islands. Can pigs do that? :P


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by pandion, posted 06-08-2009 6:24 PM pandion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by pandion, posted 06-09-2009 1:47 AM Blue Jay has responded

roxrkool
Member
Posts: 1489
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 344 of 372 (511294)
06-09-2009 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by TruthIsNeverTooHorrible
06-08-2009 6:07 PM


huh?
Say again.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by TruthIsNeverTooHorrible, posted 06-08-2009 6:07 PM TruthIsNeverTooHorrible has not yet responded

  
pandion
Member
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 345 of 372 (511299)
06-09-2009 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by Blue Jay
06-08-2009 11:34 PM


Re: Genetics and Pigs
Bluejay writes:

The point wasn't that pigs aren't useful index fossils, or even that Peg's example is invalid: the point was that Peg is failing to actually present the argument.


That would be really nice if that were how you presented the argument. In fact, you challenged Peg's assertion that pig fossils are, in fact, quite useful as index fossils over vast areas in east Africa. Moreover, you based that on the fact that many species of spiders can be found in a relatively small area. Don't you really understand how irrelevant your analogy is? The point is, in fact, that Peg's assertion is correct. The point is not whether she failed to present a valid argument. In fact, she did. The point is that you challenged her assertion reference to pig fossils with an irrelevant reference to spiders. In fact, the dating of the KBS tuff was rejected because the pig fossils were not the same type.

As I said, Peg gets very few points right. But in this case she did. And you decided to argue and present a totally irrelevant metaphor.

P.S. Spiders regularly cross entire oceans by ballooning on threads of silk, and thereby colonized the Pacific Islands. Can pigs do that?

My inclination would to have left a gross error alone. Do I need to explain why this little tidbit is just so much defensive fluff?

Edited by pandion, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Blue Jay, posted 06-08-2009 11:34 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by bluescat48, posted 06-09-2009 5:52 AM pandion has not yet responded
 Message 347 by JonF, posted 06-09-2009 7:40 AM pandion has responded
 Message 349 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-09-2009 12:57 PM pandion has responded
 Message 350 by Blue Jay, posted 06-09-2009 2:17 PM pandion has not yet responded

RewPrev1
...
202122
23
2425Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2014 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2014