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Author Topic:   the new and improved obama thread
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 181 of 237 (460779)
03-18-2008 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Silent H
03-18-2008 7:04 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
How was the transcript Molbio linked to "easily manipulated"? Even if one wanted to have doubts as to whether he truly feels deep down in some hidden part of his brain everything that he expressed... isn't his message the right one we need in the public arena at this time? Isn't it the kind of inspirational message we ought to have coming out of the White House?
Well, being the cynic I am, I look at it like this: His motivation for giving the speech was not to present a message to America or unite people; the motivation for the speech was to partake in damage control due to the inuendos surfacing regarding his relationship with Wright.
Nothing happens on the campaign trail out of utopian concerns. Nothing happens without the approval of the Campaign staff and pollsters. This is politics and before anyhone so much as farts in public, everything is carefully staged, planned,and rehearsed well in advance.
This is not to say I do not believe his sincerity in his call for unity or that it was not welcome or needed. I am simply saying, as with any candidate, the number one goal is to get elected. Nobody does anything without this in mind. I do not believe race relations was the impetus for the speech - damage control was.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 182 of 237 (460784)
03-18-2008 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Grizz
03-18-2008 7:37 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Grizz writes:
This is not to say I do not believe his sincerity in his call for unity or that it was not welcome or needed. I am simply saying, as with any candidate, the number one goal is to get elected. Nobody does anything without this in mind. I do not believe race relations was the impetus for the speech - damage control was.
It has become natural to be cynical of politicians. Everything that is being said by the politicians is reported by the media in such a way that the only importance of what they say relates to how it affects their political chances in an election.
Maybe however there are politicans who will say what they believe to be right and if it doesn't play well politically then so be it, because if the public doesn't agree with them, then what's the point of being elected.
I listened to Obama's speech live. He strikes me as that kind of guy, so I would suggest that people listen to what he has to say without regard to how it plays politically because I think he had something to say that is really worth thinking about whether the man is elected or not.
I might add by the way that in Canada I am a card carrying Conservative, but sometimes something arises that transcends simple left wing, right wing politics. IMHO this speech fits that category.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 183 of 237 (460790)
03-18-2008 10:06 PM


Another take on Rev Wright
I found the comments on this Christian web site regarding Rev Wright interesting.
Jeremiah Wright

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 237 (460792)
03-18-2008 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Silent H
03-18-2008 6:54 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
SH writes:
To Buz: please read the entire transcript and tell me how, as a christian and an American, you feel his words indicate anything but positive intentions for this nation. These are HIS words. How would you judge them?
I listened to the whole thing and smoked out[/i] in this campaign. It's all political rhetoric and the only way to interpret it objectively is to understand that this is the mindset of Obama's spiritual mentor and Obama likes it well enough to subject his family to it for a long time.
Back in the old Obama thread I remember citing an Obama quote from one of his senatorial campaigns when he told Wright he would need to distance himself from Wright until after the election. I don't have the time to read the thread to find it. I see this response of Obama as the same ole damage control. This man's shady affiliates and the fact that he has the most liberal socialist voting record in the Senate raises red flags all over the place. You can swallow the smooth crafty talk but I'm not buying it.
Imo, Obama is being highly deceitful in trying to allege that this is unusual stuff for Wright and that it's not been going on for a long time regularly.
I don't know how far back tapes can be had of Wright. It would be an interesting research if one could access them over a long period of time. Methinks they're available but one might have a hard time accessing them.
Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted in parentheses

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Replies to this message:
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 185 of 237 (460796)
03-19-2008 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Buzsaw
03-18-2008 11:18 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
I don't know how far back tapes can be had of Wright. It would be an interesting research if one could access them over a long period of time. Methinks they're available but one might have a hard time accessing them.
Had you bothered to read the thread, you'd know that there are literally dozens of tapes for sale. I even posted a link.
There are only 8 minutes (from 2 sermons -- one 5 minute clip and one 3 minute clip) available online.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 186 of 237 (460798)
03-19-2008 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Grizz
03-18-2008 7:15 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
How many of us would like to hear from a politcian - "I know my chances of doing this are slim. All I can promise is I will try to the last." Such a response would Garner my vote in a heartbeat.
Yeah, now who would say something like that? Sounds kinda familiar, kinda like...
Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naive as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy -- particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.
But I have asserted a firm conviction -- a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people -- that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.
Would that work for you?

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 187 of 237 (460800)
03-19-2008 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Buzsaw
03-18-2008 11:18 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
I listened to the whole thing and smoked out in this campaign.
What does smoked out mean?
This man's shady affiliates and the fact that he has the most liberal socialist voting record in the Senate raises red flags all over the place. You can swallow the smooth crafty talk but I'm not buying it.
Shady affiliates? You have one popular pastor who said some things that the black community tends to go for, though errantly hyperbolic and divisive. And it has been suggested that that same pastor was popular among respected theologians in general (for his religious work). Of yeah and that pastor has some friends you don't like.
I would point out that a liberal voting policy would contradict the Islamic connection you had earlier been trying to insinuate.
I feel very sorry for you that a genuinely strong speech gets twisted into smooth crafty talk. That would be a very dark, ugly world.
Obama is being highly deceitful in trying to allege that this is unusual stuff for Wright and that it's not been going on for a long time regularly.
First, how can you claim this if you also admit not having heard all his sermons? Second, Obama states directly in his speech that the pastor has said things similar, though not as directly errant and divisive as the clips being played. So he was aware the guy made some angry comments now and then. He explained what this meant, where it would come from, and why it would not necessitate his leaving the church.
I am now somewhat skeptical on whether you read it.
Be that as it may, what will you do if Obama gets elected president, and then does not turn out to be an Islamic mole? What if he does exactly what he says and works hard to help fix the nation?
Edited by Silent H, : -i

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 188 of 237 (460801)
03-19-2008 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Buzsaw
03-18-2008 11:18 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Buzsaw writes:
Imo, Obama is being highly deceitful in trying to allege that this is unusual stuff for Wright and that it's not been going on for a long time regularly.
I don't know how far back tapes can be had of Wright. It would be an interesting research if one could access them over a long period of time. Methinks they're available but one might have a hard time accessing them.
I just reviewed Obama's whole talk and he does not say that Wright hasn't been saying these things over a long period of time. If you could find tapes from 20 years ago with objectionable content on them it wouldn't contradict anything that Obama said. I suggest that your comment that he is deceitful is off base.
I'm a social conservative so there are things on which I disagree with Obama. However every candidate is a complete package. Sure I disagree on his position on abortion but in reality there is currently a very pro-life president in the white house now and nothing has changed anyway.
As Christians we are called to reflect Christ's love to the world. The US is not the New Jerusalem. The whole world is and we are called to be servants to that world. I believe that there are better ways to love and serve the Iraqi people than what is going on now and I think that Obama's way is more in line with what Jesus would do than what Bush is doing or what McCain would do.
I think that Obama's message of racial and national unity is what both the US and the world need right now. The only way the war can ultimately be won is to change the hearts of the people of Iraq. It is difficult to change the hearts of people while you're dropping bombs on them. I realize that winning a war that way is not going to happen over night. After all it did take the Christians 300 years to change the hearts of the Romans.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 189 of 237 (460817)
03-19-2008 10:10 AM


The hidden agendas
Buzsaw once said (Message 259
quote:
I insist that Mohammed's god and Jesus's father/god are diametrically opposed. Thus you get killed for preaching Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible in Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia...
But look, Mccain who has hired Tom Loeffler - a lobbyist for Saudi Arabia (and getting paid $900,000 by them for his work on their behalf) for his campaign. Obviously, since the Jesus hating Islamist fascists are paying Loeffler, McCain is a hidden Islamist. He's probably working for Saudi Arabia or Iran, any statements to the contrary are clearly smooth talking political lies. We know that McCain is a Saudi apologist:
McCain writes:
We’ve got some very, very big issues that I think are perhaps more important than whether a country that’s freer than China should have control of some of our terminals.
Yep - we shouldn't worry about ceding control of ports to Islamist Christian killers because after all, Saudi Arabia is freer than China! Classic distraction technique there.
I imagine Obama, also a secret Islamist would also try to distract attention away from such things:
Obama writes:
Over four years after the worst terrorist attack in our history, not only are we failing to inspect 95% of the cargo that arrives at U.S. ports, but now we're allowing our port security to be outsourced to foreign governments. Clearly, more time should have been spent investigating this deal and consulting with homeland security experts and local officials. I support my colleagues on both sides of the aisle who are seeking a full review of this deal.
Which is worse! Obama is clearly so completely clever, he manages to hide is Islamist sympathies at every opportunity. Obama is more dangerous for his cleverness.
But I guess McCain isn't in league with in any flaming racists. His friends are tolerant,
McCain writes:
George Wallace Jr., is an enlightened progressive leader who always speaks of tolerance and carries forth his father's views at the end of his life. He has strong support across the racial and political spectrum
But wait, isn't this the same George Wallace Jr that gave the opening speech at a Council of Conservative Citizens national meeting? The same group of people whose statement of principles reads
quote:
We believe that the United States derives from and is an integral part of European civilization and the European people and that the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character. We therefore oppose the massive immigration of non-European and non-Western peoples into the United States that threatens to transform our nation into a non-European majority in our lifetime. We believe that illegal immigration must be stopped, if necessary by military force and placing troops on our national borders; that illegal aliens must be returned to their own countries; and that legal immigration must be severely restricted or halted through appropriate changes in our laws and policies. We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind...
Oh. Well at least we still have Hillary. Who spoke with AMC and accepted two Korans from them as gifts:
Clinton writes:
"I am honored to have these gifts... one for my husband, and one for me, as Chelsea already has her copy."
Chelsea (an Islamist sympathizer) has been instructing the couple on Islam:
Clinton writes:
I have to admit that a good deal of what my husband and I have learned (about Islam) has come from my daughter
Wait, the AMC, founded by Abdul Rahman Al-Amoudi - the guy who was paid by Gaddaffi of Libya to participate in an assasination??
Face it, the Muslims have won already - they have managed to make sure at the next election the US people will have to vote for an extremist Islamist whose intent is to Islamize the world through forced conversion or by the sword. The only safe thing is for the US to split, one into the European-descended States of America and the other into the Socialist-Islamist State of Terroronia followed by an immediate war. The end-times are finally here, the great battle is about to begin!

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 190 of 237 (460847)
03-19-2008 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Grizz
03-18-2008 6:51 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
They are not designed to be platforms to lay bare one's soul.
I don't see why not. To be honest, what other choice does a public figure have? What other vector of communication can they use to personally address what amounts to personal attacks on their character?
I think you are partially correct, it is foolish to assume that what these people put out in their speeches and public addresses is all that is in their heart, but at the same time it is also foolish to assume that nothing can be learned or effectivly communicated by these types of speeches especially when you take into acount the total picture of how they run their public lives. In this case you can take the speech in the context in which Obama has run his campaign.
I want someone who can really get something done. Can he do it better than Clinton or McCain? That is the only thing I care about.
That is where I think it is the responsibility of the public to excercise broad judgement. The point you bring up is historically why governors have faired better than legislators in races for executive positions. It is much harder to tease out the accomplishments of an individual legisator because they are always affected by the backdrop of the body in which they served. An executive canidate often holds the edge because they have more opportunity to exercise independent will.
Since we have 3 senators running, the playing field starts sort of level. There are more years of experience for McCain versus both canidates but in Obama versus Hillary, Obama actually has more legislative experience than Hillary.
I also take into account how the various canidates are running their campaign. Obama has built a mammoth system and has surrounded himself with advisors that are the best of the best (Susan Rice, Samantha Powers (he shouldn't have ditched her)). Compare that to the short sightedness of both Hillary and McCain, the various times they have had to dump staff for ineptitude and in the case of Hillary they still don't even get along with each other.
Obama has managed his money, kept his campaign extordinarily focused, shattered fundraising records not only in the total amounts but in the amount of people he has empowered to be part of the process. Over 1 million individuals have donated to his campaign. He was smart enough to tap modern avenues to get his message out that the other canidates started to mimic only after they saw how effective it was.
Can he lead? I think how you run your own house refectly directly on how you would run your business or your office.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 191 of 237 (460852)
03-19-2008 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Buzsaw
03-18-2008 11:18 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
the fact that he has the most liberal socialist voting record in the Senate raises red flags all over the place.
The fact is that this nonsense is the opinion of a conservative news source who did the same analysis in 2004 and found out that it just so happens that John Kerry was the most liberal person in the senate.
How did Obama eclipse John Kerry so quickly? Or is it just a coincidence that whoever happens to be the democratic front runner just happens to become the "new" most liberal person in the eyes of conservatives with a admitted bent on swaying the vote to Republicans?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 237 (460853)
03-19-2008 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Buzsaw
03-18-2008 11:18 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
This man's shady affiliates and the fact that he has the most liberal socialist voting record in the Senate raises red flags all over the place.
Ha ha! Double meaning of "red flag" -- good one!
Actually, that's cool. If true I might get up and register to vote.

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 193 of 237 (460854)
03-19-2008 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Buzsaw
03-18-2008 11:18 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
FYI, Buz.
When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association. But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.
Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers (following in my father's footsteps) rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits. They tell us that America is complicit in the "murder of the unborn," has become "Sodom" by coddling gays, and that our public schools are sinful places full of evolutionists and sex educators hell-bent on corrupting children. They say, as my dad often did, that we are, "under the judgment of God." They call America evil and warn of immanent destruction. By comparison Obama's minister's shouted "controversial" comments were mild. All he said was that God should damn America for our racism and violence and that no one had ever used the N-word about Hillary Clinton.
Was any conservative political leader associated with Dad running for cover? Far from it. Dad was a frequent guest of the Kemps, had lunch with the Fords, stayed in the White House as their guest, he met with Reagan, helped Dr. C. Everett Koop become Surgeon General. (I went on the 700 Club several times to generate support for Koop).
Dad became a hero to the evangelical community and a leading political instigator. When Dad died in 1984 everyone from Reagan to Kemp to Billy Graham lamented his passing publicly as the loss of a great American. Not one Republican leader was ever asked to denounce my dad or distanced himself from Dad's statements.
Take Dad's words and put them in the mouth of Obama's preacher (or in the mouth of any black American preacher) and people would be accusing that preacher of treason. Yet when we of the white Religious Right denounced America white conservative Americans and top political leaders, called our words "godly" and "prophetic" and a "call to repentance."
Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero | HuffPost Latest News

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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 194 of 237 (460876)
03-19-2008 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by molbiogirl
03-19-2008 1:03 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Nice job molbiogrl!
Now, for Buzsaw:
I'd like to ask you (since you seem so concerned about racism/anti-semitism and all) why is it that Rev. John Hagee has not received the same sort of outraged criticism(from the right, that is) as Rev. Jeremiah Wright. After all Hagee has had this to say about the way the Jews have been treated throughout the centuries:
quote:
"It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day..."
--Pastor John Hagee, "Jerusalem Countdown," pp. 92-93
Meaning the Jews brought it on themselves. And (from the same book):
quote:
The Bible is a book of parables and word pictures describing principles of truth from God to man. The prophet Jeremiah puts his pen to parchment and paints a vivid picture of the human agendas God intended to use to bring the Jewish people back to Israel.
"But now I will send for many fishermen" declares the LORD, "and they will catch them. After that I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them down on every mountain and hill and from the crevices of the rocks."
-- Jeremiah 16:16 NIV
I believe this verse indicates that the positive comes before the negative. Grace and mercy come before judgment. The fishermen come before the hunters. First, God sent the fishermen to Israel. These were the Zionists, men like Theodor Herzl who called for the Jews of Europe and the world to come to Palestine to establish the Jewish state. The Jews were encouraged to escape while there was still time. The situation for Jews in Europe would only get worse, not better.
A fisherman is one who draws his target toward him with bait. Herzl and his fellow Zionists were God's fishermen, calling the sons and daughters of Abraham home. Herzl was deeply disappointed that the Jews of the world did not respond in greater numbers.
God then sent the hunters. The hunter is one who pursues his target with force and fear. No one could see the horror of the Holocaust coming, but the force and fear of Hitler's Nazis drove the Jewish people back to the only home God ever intended for the Jews to have -- Israel. I stand amazed at the accuracy of God's Word and its relevance for our time. I am stricken with awe and wonder at His boundless love for Israel and the Jewish people and His divine determination that the promise He gave Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob become reality.
Bolding mine.
Of course, that passage may not mean that Hitler did the world a favor by pushing the Jews to flee to Israel and, thus, beginning the countdown to the Second Coming but it sure does look like it.
Then we have the anti-Catholic rants (I wonder how exactly one takes "the Great Whore" out of context as McCain has recently claimed?), the blaming of Hurricane Katrina on gay and gay-friendly Americans (there are lots of little gems in that interview), and the lovely little "slave sale" that was reported back in 1996 where in his church's newsletter ran this ad:
quote:
"Slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone," it said. "Make plans to come and go home with a slave."
And this is just Hagee. What about Jerry Falwell (yeah he's dead, but he was never asked to distance himself and his batshit crazy remarks from presidents, legislators or candidates...he was in fact embraced with open arms!!) or Pat Robertson who both also blamed 9/11 on the actions of Americans (altho, personally, I buy Wright's assessment of terrorism being a response to America's arrogant and destructive foreign policies over some gobbledygook about God being mad at us because we like teh gayz and women are roaming around outside the kitchen) The White House sent a nice polite letter saying that Bush "doesn't share those views" and that was the end of that as far as "denouncing" the two powerhouse preachers.
The hypocrisy is astounding.
The double standard (for both blacks and Democrats) is, unfortunately, not a surprise at all.
What say you, Buz?
PS - I didn't even bring up the anti-Islam remarks, but I'm sure you agree with Hagee and others say about them, so why bother?

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 195 of 237 (460879)
03-19-2008 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Jaderis
03-19-2008 7:01 PM


Merit in counterexamples, but they're still pretty off-topic
The topic is Barack Obama, the current subtopic theme is the Rev. Wright.
We really don't want to derail things by excessive discussion of other preachers positions and statements.
So, if you do bring up other preachers, please explicitly also connect the discussion to the Obama/Wright situation.
Or something like that.
Adminnemooseus
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Why do I not always log in as Adminnemooseus? - Changed ID.

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