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Author Topic:   OK! You're president. Now what?
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 1 of 43 (412081)
07-23-2007 5:54 PM


I have found that the biggest topic by far on most of the blogs I visit, including to a certain extent, this one, is how Bush and Co. have made a royal screw-up of the Iraq war and as a consequence have made a major mess of this country. I find I agree with most of the criticism leveled in all those posts, but what I am not finding is any well thought out suggestions as to how we might correct the situation, or at least minimize all the harm to ourselves and our Middle East friends that we are now perpetrating.
The topic I am proposing is one in which each contributer assumes he/she has been elected president, or appointed National Security Advisor or taken some such high level office and authority and now needs to propose a plan, with full rational for its selection, that will extricate us from this mess. Even though I say "us", all our foreign friends are particularly invited to participate, since I suspect they will have some very knowledgeable input, and the harm being done is having world wide impacts.
I am sure that this thread will at some point - hopefully not to soon - degenerate into just more repetition of all the accusations and back biting that is currently going on in all the other blogs, so I would really like all the participants to focus on finding or exploring positive solutions. In fact, I would suggest that, no matter how emotionally you are involved in this issue, you take a deep breath and detach yourself from the heated aspects of the controversy and approach the situation as an exercise in problem solving.
The way I have worded this PNT so far seems to be loaded on the side of the war's opponents and to be excluding supporters of the war. I don't mean to do this but I also don't want repeats of all the justifications for our actions to date since these are well covered elsewhere. I think most war supporters feel that the war could be going better and that some serious mistakes have been made that need to be corrected. I invite these people to also participate with any plans they would like to explore to improve the current situation and redress those past errors.
It might serve to keep the discussion focused on the objective if we categorize our inputs along the following lines (with variations in between):
1) Get out fast and don't look back.
2) Phased withdrawal with well defined 'mileposts' for each stage.
3) "Stay the course." Continue with our current approach.
4) Expand operations to increase pressure and confinement on the insurgents, and perhaps even expand the conflict into adjacent countries that are supporting the war.
It would be appropriate at this point to state my solution to the situation. I have none. I would almost consider voting against my candidate of choice to avoid foisting this debacle on them. The reason I'm suggesting this topic on this forum is that many of the most intelligent people I know I have found posting here. (OK. So I don't know a whole lot of people.) Perhaps with some real effort and self control we can come up with some viable suggestions.
To Admin.: I have no idea where to place this PNT. Your call.

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 43 (412129)
07-23-2007 9:12 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 3 of 43 (412139)
07-23-2007 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals
07-23-2007 5:54 PM


It would be appropriate at this point to state my solution to the situation. I have none.
I would start with an apology to the Iraqi people and to the world for the excesses of the former administration, and make it clear that this was not the universal wish of the American people, that it was caused by a few who should have known better.
I would appoint a commission to investigate what laws, treaties and regulations had been broken by the former administration, with a grand jury to evaluate whether there were sufficient cause to prosecute anyone for treason or for war crimes.
I would make this information available to the UN war crimes investigators to see that anyone that did authorize war crimes could be prosecuted.
I would also appoint a commission to see where all the money went that was spent on Iraq, and that any subcontractor that could not provide documentation for every dollar they were given should give that money back AND with a grand jury to evaluate whether there were sufficient cause to prosecute anyone for corruption, including anyone who approved payments to such companies.
I would close GITMO and transfer all prisoners into a full geneva convention transparent system with each prisoner fast-tracked for release or prosecution. Same with all other prisoners kept in any other jails\prisons, whether they are in other countries or not.
I would repeal the "Patriot" Act and any other infringement on American rights imposed by the previous administration, and set the legal standard back on the Constitution requirements where it belongs.
I would make all White House documents available to Congressional oversight committees and set up as transparent a government as possible. I would set up a board to review all top-secret designations of the previous administration to see what ones could be declassified.
This would be called the "setting your house in order" phase.
I would start phased withdrawal of US troops immediately, and let the world know that this is what we are doing and why: what is left in Iraq is a peace-keeping mission, and as one of the aggressors the US cannot fulfill this mission. Those that don't want to see Iraq fall victim of their civil\sectarian war are free to work within the UN peace-keeping mission and the US will fund it (as retribution for having instigated the war).
I would allow all those Iraqi that helped the US during the war and that want to immigrate to the US.
I would re-center on Afghanistan and the pursuit of the Terrorists and their supporters that are the problem. This pursuit would involve political and international police networks to track the wrong-doers down and bring them to justice: facing a court of international law.
I would bring the National Guard home, and sponsor a bill that they could not be used outside this country unless they individually volunteered to upgrade their service to full military.
I would redefine the National Guard purpose to defend the Nation from their bases in the US, and include not just attacks from hostile forces but response to any other National emergency. Different bases could specialize in different disaster rapid responses, flood, plague, forest fire, earthquake, hurricanes, providing rapid shelter and home to devastated areas, providing police and security forces for devastated areas, providing manpower to rebuild needed infrastructure, etcetera. These special units could also be used on a volunteer basis abroad when other nations have a national disaster.
I would fully fund the Veterans Administration to provide service and assistance to returning veterans and those already home and ensure that they get the best treatment.
I would fully fund a similar program for victims of the war in Iraq ... even if it has to be done from outside the country.
Just for starters.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 07-23-2007 5:54 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 07-23-2007 10:24 PM RAZD has not replied
 Message 7 by Jaderis, posted 07-24-2007 2:14 AM RAZD has not replied
 Message 10 by Brian, posted 07-25-2007 9:22 AM RAZD has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 43 (412140)
07-23-2007 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
07-23-2007 10:12 PM


Wow, And I was set to throw my hands up ..
I'd vote for ya! I thought a little about this and was daunted by the prospects of having to take any action. This is an excellent start. I'm very impressed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 07-23-2007 10:12 PM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Taz, posted 07-23-2007 10:30 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 5 of 43 (412142)
07-23-2007 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
07-23-2007 10:24 PM


Re: Wow, And I was set to throw my hands up ..
NosyNed writes:
I'd vote for ya!
Are you volunteering Canada for annexation? If so, great! We tried to invade and annex you guys twice, but you guys kicked us out both times.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 07-23-2007 10:24 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 43 (412158)
07-23-2007 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Taz
07-23-2007 10:30 PM


Re: Wow, And I was set to throw my hands up ..
Tazmanian Devil
We tried to invade and annex you guys twice, but you guys kicked us out both times.
That is because we can drink and soldier at the same time.

This message is a reply to:
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 7 of 43 (412175)
07-24-2007 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
07-23-2007 10:12 PM


Youtube vs RAZD!!
Now, that is what I wanted to hear during the CNN Youtube "debate" I just finished watching!
Of course, you can't get comprehensive policy answers in a 30-second timeframe, but no one even came close, although, Kucinich would probably agree with just about everything you just said.
I would expand your criteria for Iraqis who wish to immigrate to the US to any who are fleeing persecution during/after the withdrawal (let's face it, we can't pretend there won't be violence and power-grabs during the withdrawal phases and/or after we leave regardless of peace-keeping forces).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 07-23-2007 10:12 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 8 of 43 (412511)
07-25-2007 5:12 AM


Bush should put up or shut up
Though this is a bit of a departure from the core question of the thread, I'd like to point out that the administration talks a big game about it's goals, moral, plans, etc. but it NEVER does anything about it.
Bush regularly claims that winning in Iraq is important.
If he HONESTLY believes that, the way FDR believed that beating Hitler was important, then he should pony up and send everyone.
And I don't mean "everyone" like, some of the armed forced and some of the guard. I mean EVERYONE like, "Guess what, we're bringing back the draft".
If it's SO important that we win, why aren't we going "all in" as it were?
It couldn't possibly be that the backlash against a draft would be devistating to his political agenda - because who would consider politics when the fate of our very nation is at stake?
It couldn't be that his advisors have rightfully pointed out that an "all male" draft would be quickly challenged and defeated in court, thus resulting in the administration trying to convince the Red states that they need to send their daughters off to die.
If I ran on a platform of cutting taxes, you bet your ass when I got into office - I'd cut taxes.
If I ran on a platform of health care reform, you bet your ass I'd reform the crap outta health care.
These Dick-heads (people who following Dick Cheney's every command) ran on the war. So, let's go to war! Let's ask the red states for more volunteers. It's the only way were gonna get their numbers down low enough that they won't keep screwing up the elections and getting us into this mess all over again.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 43 (412523)
07-25-2007 8:36 AM


1. I would put it straight to the people that there is a ww conspiracy in place which threatenes the planet, similar to the ambitions of Hitler in that the theocratic Islamic heads of state plan to rule the world as per the Koran, the Hadith and the Sunnahs. I would document and widely publish this information.
2. I would then impress upon the people the importance of protecting the nation of Israel which is the one and only nation in the region which is protecting the planet from complete domination of the oil rich region of the Middle East.
3. I would therefore insure that the US & western NATO democracies maintain some base of operation for air power so as to insure balance and a measure of stability in the all crucial Middle East and Europe.
4. I would STOP building up another violent Islamic regime in Iraq as we are doing. This is real stupid, i.e. establishing another Hezbolic Sheitist violent Islamic power allied to the Sheitist Iranian totalitarian dictatorship so as for to empower the violent Sheitist sector of Islam which intends to conquer the world for Islam and their god, Allah.
5. I would then model Israel's SUCESSFUL strategy of maintaining stability by making it crystal clear that whenever aggressive acts are perpetrated by any violent groups, the bombs will fly on the interests of those organizations which advocate such violence. It would be strike, destroy and withdraw just as Israel does so effectively.
6. We would then have no part in building up the very religious theocracy that advocates takeover of the planet and would hold at bay the violence just as Israel does so effectively to protect their tiny little nation which lies smack dad in the midst of violent neighbors.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 10 of 43 (412534)
07-25-2007 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
07-23-2007 10:12 PM


Would you do anything about the war crimes that Israel has committed on innocent civilians in Palestine, or would you do what Bush has done and declare war on terrorism in select countries?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 07-23-2007 10:12 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 11 of 43 (412538)
07-25-2007 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
07-25-2007 8:36 AM


5. I would then model Israel's SUCESSFUL strategy of maintaining stability by making it crystal clear that whenever aggressive acts are perpetrated by any violent groups, the bombs will fly...
Buz, they've had 50 years of this policy and it has had no effect at all on lessening terrorism: that is what I call FAILURE.
If you want to look at SUCCESSFUL strategy for dealing with terrorism look at Ireland: where are the terrorist bombs now? Gone. THAT is success.
Backing Israel's "strategy" is the wrong policy for anyone interested in solving the problem. Basing our mid-east policy on this FAILED strategy is a recipe for disaster.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 07-25-2007 8:36 AM Buzsaw has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 43 (412540)
07-25-2007 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Brian
07-25-2007 9:22 AM


...the war crimes that Israel has committed on innocent civilians in Palestine,...
I would make it clear that the US would not block prosecution through the UN of war crimes by any country. Including US and it's allies. This is a matter of justice.
We can't pretend that anyone is above the law.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Brian, posted 07-25-2007 9:22 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 07-27-2007 9:06 AM RAZD has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 43 (413007)
07-27-2007 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
07-25-2007 9:39 AM


Endless Dilema
But Razd, when you are surrounded by neighbors indoctrinated by a religious conspiracy to dominate not only the Mideast, but the entire planet, there is no terminal solution so long as the conspiracy remains a threat and so long as the conspirators continue to flourish. The only option is to either hold the enemy at bay as Israel does or go better yet on the offensive against the conspiracy.
The problem with the non-Muslim world is the lie that Islam is a peaceful religion is widely believed in spite of the evidence. The life and teaching of Mohammed and his desciples imperically proves otherwise.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 07-25-2007 9:39 AM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 18 by Taz, posted 07-27-2007 12:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 43 (413008)
07-27-2007 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
07-25-2007 9:44 AM


Biased UN
The problem with your thinking is that you evidently are unaware that the UN is obviously pro Islam and anti US/Israel in this conflict. The UN has traditionally been anti-West, highly influenced by both Communism and now Islam.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 07-25-2007 9:44 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-27-2007 10:21 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 19 by jar, posted 07-27-2007 12:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 07-27-2007 7:14 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 32 by Jaderis, posted 08-01-2007 4:26 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 15 of 43 (413010)
07-27-2007 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
07-27-2007 9:02 AM


Re: Endless Dilema
yes , i mean the western world is not trying to dominate the middle east by proping up the ruling elite is saudi , by buying jordans support with cash , arms and trade deals ,by making deals with the the smaller states leader to run their oil industries ....
religion became the voice of freedom in that region because it was the one orgsanization that the west fail to buy up .. the oil means the west interfers , and does it with no reguard to the wishes of the people living there ... then we are shoocked they dont like us .. gosh but we are the good guys right ..

This message is a reply to:
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