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Author Topic:   Senator Al Franken?
Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 166 of 212 (824490)
11-29-2017 4:20 PM


Et tu, Garrison Keillor
Just what is going on up there in Minnesota? Something in the air or water? It's too cold? Too many lakes? What?

Garrison Keillor, ex-host of ĎA Prairie Home Companion,í fired after allegations of improper behavior

Keillor describes it as accidental contact, but it sounds like he hasn't received a copy of the complaint yet, and no one's released any details yet other than that there's been a complaint and he's been fired, so there's no way to form an opinion at this point. But concerning accidental contact, is there any guy out there who has never accidentally elbowed a boob? Do I need to resign my position here at EvC?

I still say I believe the woman, but this is a strange one, and I await the details.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 11-29-2017 4:28 PM Percy has responded
 Message 171 by Rrhain, posted 11-29-2017 6:05 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 175 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-29-2017 11:57 PM Percy has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 167 of 212 (824493)
11-29-2017 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Percy
11-29-2017 4:20 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
And why are all of the women in the country suddenly coming out with this stuff at the same time? Were men really pigs all along?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 11-29-2017 4:20 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 168 of 212 (824506)
11-29-2017 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Phat
11-29-2017 4:28 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
Phat writes:

And why are all of the women in the country suddenly coming out with this stuff at the same time? Were men really pigs all along?

My wife and I agree on this: yes.

Decades ago I had a friend who had spent a few years in the bar scene and confided in me that he'd treated women just terribly. It was behavior that felt normal at the time, pressuring women verbally and physically (not violently) to get them into bed, then discarding them. Then he got a little older and became appalled at his behavior. He got married, had two sons, became a model husband and father. But some guys (many of them in politics apparently) never grow up.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6210
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 169 of 212 (824507)
11-29-2017 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Percy
11-29-2017 9:28 AM


You haven't answered the question, Percy
Percy writes:

quote:
Until Franken admits recalling this pattern of behavior that began when he was still part of Franken and Davis he hasn't even taken the first step on the road to recovering his credibility and integrity.

Why?

You haven't answered my question, Percy:

When you say you believe the women, exactly what are you believing?

If, as you say, "integrity needs to start somewhere," why not right here and now: When you say you believe the women, exactly what are you believing?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Percy, posted 11-29-2017 9:28 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6210
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 170 of 212 (824508)
11-29-2017 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Phat
11-29-2017 4:28 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
Phat writes:

quote:
Were men really pigs all along?

YES!

Let's not pretend this is such a shock.

We can only hope that this moment doesn't go the way of the last moment. There was a spate of concern regarding sexual assault on college campuses....and it all vanished due to one bad actor. And now we have an administration that is actively working to undo any protections victims have regarding sexual assault on campus.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 11-29-2017 4:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6210
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 171 of 212 (824509)
11-29-2017 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Percy
11-29-2017 4:20 PM


You still haven't answered the question, Percy
Percy writes:

quote:
I still say I believe the woman

What do you mean by that? What are you believing?

quote:
but this is a strange one, and I await the details.

Oh, I see...so if it's possible for Keillor to have misplaced his hand for a photo shoot, why is it so hard to consider that Franken might have done the same thing?

Note, this doesn't deny what happened. I still "believe the woman," just like you do.

Or do I? I don't know what you mean when you say you "believe the woman."

What are you believing?

It happened to me, Percy. What do you believe about the scenario I related to you? Was I sexually assaulted?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 11-29-2017 4:20 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6210
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 172 of 212 (824511)
11-29-2017 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Percy
11-29-2017 12:34 PM


Re: Guilty by statistics
Percy writes:

quote:
To not devalue truth Franken must own this. Whatever words he chooses he must in effect say, "I did this, a person in my position of trust cannot do this, and I must therefore resign my position."

And then follows it up with:

quote:
But concerning accidental contact, is there any guy out there who has never accidentally elbowed a boob? Do I need to resign my position here at EvC?

So when are you resigning your position, Percy? Or have you forgotten the mass purge you made in the wake of the rampant homophobia that made its way through this forum a few years back? How many of our best posters did we lose not because they were driven out by the bigots but rather because or your specific inability to get rid of the ones causing the problem? Where you tarred everybody with the same brush, kicking out the very people who were pointing out your rank and utter stupidity in your handling of the situation? Have you forgotten the chain bannings? Someone pointed out that your actions were inappropriate, and they were banned...so then someone else pointed out that it was inappropriate to ban the person who was pointing out the problem...and they were banned...and then someone pointed out that this banning of people for questioning the banning of people was inappropriate...and they were banned.

I was one of those people, Percy. Or have you forgotten? You did it to me.

You still haven't apologized for it, Percy. To not devalue truth, you need to own this. Whatever words you choose, you must in effect say, "I did this, a person in my position of trust cannot do this, and I must therefore resign my position."

Right?

RIGHT?

So when are you going to resign? When are you going to live up to your own standards:

Message 163

Integrity, honesty, principle, virtue, truth, decency, goodness, virtue [sic], generosity, kindness, character.

This is the problem with zero tolerance. Eventually, you get caught up in your own hype.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 11-29-2017 12:34 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5544
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 173 of 212 (824515)
11-29-2017 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Phat
11-29-2017 4:28 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
Were men really pigs all along?

Many of them were. And many women have suffered in silence.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 11-29-2017 4:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3057
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 174 of 212 (824517)
11-29-2017 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Percy
11-29-2017 12:34 PM


Re: Guilty by statistics
Well,

The EXIF data and the circumstances of the first one makes the first accusation suspect.

The second one , there is the claim (I am not a photo person, so I don't know) that there is evidence that the fingers of Franken's hands were photo shopped away from her shoulder.

The next two are anonymous. .. and have only been reported through Huffpo. Considering the efforts of Project Veritas to discredit the Washington post, until better details are forthcoming, they can be discounted as insufficient evidence for the details.

When there is positive evidence the first two claims lied, and the next two claims to a single source that is not the best for sniffing out inconsistencies, and the names are being withheld, well, I need more.

While I agree with a lot of Huffington posts politics, they are not too professional with fact checking sometimes. I can see them being taken in by something like Project Veritas, which lied for political reasons.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 11-29-2017 12:34 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3580
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 175 of 212 (824523)
11-29-2017 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Percy
11-29-2017 4:20 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
I know nothing of the details, but serious misbehavior by Keillor seems about as likely as serious misbehavior by Mr. Rogers or Captain Kangaroo. But that could and probably has/is being said about Bill Cosby.

I question the wisdom of Minnesota Public Radio's seemingly knee jerk response of "parting company" with Keillor without some sort of due process investigation first. Does this mean no more Keillor on MPR, not even the old Prairie Home Companion reruns?

What if this had come out while Keillor was still hosting PHC? MPR is going to cancel PHC over what may well be at most minor incidents?

I don't think that blowing minor incidents out of proportion does the "me too" movement any good. Going overboard on minor issues might feed the attitude "Oh, some women is just complaining about something trivial", when there are indeed serious problems.

Treat serious problems seriously, but don't treat more trivial problems equally seriously.

As sort of parallel is the political correctness of not offending the easily offended.

By the way, I repeat my hypothetical question: "What if the recent charges against Al Franken are indeed false. How should Franken best handle that situation?" The same hypothetical question could be asked about Keillor.

Don't duck the question with "I believe the women".

And yes, the Franken and Davis (etc.) era did have ugly content, that Franken does need to make amends for. But I think there needs to be some division between the comedian Franken era and the politician era Franken. Those are two different lives.

And I do think Franken, at least in part, is making amends via his strong Senatorial efforts in progressive women's issues.

One last thought about the alleged state fair gropings. What kind of politician would deliberately do something to offend a voting constituent? Wouldn't that be pretty damn stupid? Would Franken be that stupid? "Hey, don't vote for me, I'm an asshole. And tell your friends not to vote for me."

Moose

Edited by Admin, : Fix spelling of Keillor's name: "Keilor" => "Keillor"


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 176 of 212 (824536)
11-30-2017 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by ramoss
11-29-2017 9:24 PM


Re: Guilty by statistics
Do whatever fact checking you need to do, develop whatever confidence you need to have. Do you think awareness that there would be skepticism in the form of hinting at things like photo shenanigans and sting operations and so forth had any influence on the decisions of the women who decided to remain anonymous?

--Percy


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Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 177 of 212 (824538)
11-30-2017 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Minnemooseus
11-29-2017 11:57 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
About Keillor, the action by MPR does seem precipitous. I presume MPR has actually seen the complaint, which hasn't been made public yet, and I'd like to know the actual complaint before making any judgments. I can't say "I believe the woman" because I have no idea what the woman is actually accusing Keillor of. All we know is Keillor's description of what he believes the complaint is.

About Franken, his refusal to acknowledge a behavior that audiences observed on stage, and that evidently continued after he became a Senator, looks very bad. I believe the women.

We're just going to have to face the fact that men in positions of power frequently abuse that power sexually, that neither the left nor the right has a monopoly on this behavior, and some of those who get caught are going to be men we like (Al Franken, Garrison Keillor), and some are going to be men we don't like (Roy Moore, Donald Trump).

The women, whether making complaints about men from the left or right, deserve to be treated with dignity and respect rather than with skepticism and suspicion. Their stories will be checked out to the extent possible, and unfortunately in most cases it will come down to a he-said/she-said and nothing will happen, something women are aware of when they first bring the complaint forward. But like I said, I believe the women are in the vast majority of cases honest and truthful, and that men are getting away with sexual harassment wholesale. Secretly issue all women covert body cameras and I believe that in no time a huge number of men would find themselves up on harassment charges impossible to deny.

--Percy


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 Message 175 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-29-2017 11:57 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 178 of 212 (824541)
11-30-2017 9:28 AM


What Al Franken Might Have Said After Resigning
This is what Al Franken might have said after resigning:

quote:
Some of what is being said about me is untrue or mischaracterized, but there is enough truth in these stories to make me feel embarrassed and ashamed.
...
Repairing the damage will take a lot of time and soul-searching and Iím committed to beginning that effort. It is now my full-time job. The last two days have forced me to take a very hard look at my own troubling flaws. Itís been humbling. I am blessed to be surrounded by the people I love. I thank them for their patience and grace.

The above quote is from Matt Lauer, fired yesterday from his job at NBC hosting the Today show.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 179 of 212 (824559)
11-30-2017 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Phat
11-29-2017 4:28 PM


Re: Et tu, Garrison Keillor
Phat writes:

Were men really pigs all along?


Yes. We all have an individualistic side that only cares what's good for me. But we also have a social side that takes other people's needs into account. Some men are capable of controlling their individualistic side. Others need society to slap them down.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 11-29-2017 4:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 180 of 212 (824574)
11-30-2017 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
11-28-2017 1:34 PM


Re: Franken: Resign Now
I again call upon Al Franken to resign. Today's news brings another report of another groping. This article is from the Washington Post: Sen. Al Franken accused of groping again ó this time by an Army veteran

How many more victims remain silent? We'll never know. You men out there, think about how you would behave if you were a female victim of sexual harassment or assault. One thing you would know up front is that coming forward rarely ends well for the victim. It is also common of many people to want to avoid making a fuss, avoid attracting attention, and certainly avoid the limelight. I think most men, after reflecting on this from the female perspective, would conclude that they, too, would be very, very unlikely to come forward. This is the the strong reticence many women experience.

Today's New York Times has an interesting article about Why People Doubt Victims of Sexual Harassment. I suggest that those who doubt the women read this article and consider each of the reasons it discusses, which I list here:

  • The victim doesnít act like one.
  • She stayed friendly with her abuser.
  • She did not come forward right away.
  • Her story does not add up.
  • She didnít fight back.

Another question I think those who doubt the victims should be asking themselves is why people have much more doubt about victims of their guy than the other side's guy.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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