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Author Topic:   Senator Al Franken?
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 91 of 119 (703880)
07-30-2013 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by dronestar
07-29-2013 3:05 PM


Re: "treasonous clown"
dronester writes:

dronester writes:

Do you find him more truthful/insightful than Faux News?

RingO writes:

I find all American politics incredibly boring. It's no wonder nobody votes.


Do you find him more truthful/insightful than Faux News?

The subtext of my reply is that I don't follow either of them enough to compare them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by dronestar, posted 07-29-2013 3:05 PM dronestar has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3539
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 92 of 119 (703922)
07-30-2013 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by dronestar
07-26-2013 3:29 PM


Al Franken on the NSA surveillance thing (OSLT)
Al Franken supports the NSA surveillance program against americans

As best as I know, that is true (ABE - Make that an agreement if you strike that "against americans" from the sentence).

he voted AGAINST the Amash NSA Amendment (ends the indiscriminate collection of phone and email records) on Wednesday.

I'm pretty sure that was a House of Representatives thing. Franken is in the Senate.

So laugh and deride all you want about Bachmann, because the last laugh is on us 99%ers.

But Bachmann did vote against the amendment.

quote:
It appears that Michele Bachmann has lost favor with Glenn Beck because she not only voted against an amendment that would have defunded the NSA, she argued that those concerned about NSA data mining and illegal spying are completely wrong.

Source

I fully admit that I'm not real up on this whole situation. My main info and support for Al Franken and his position is largely based on this article, which is derived from this article. Video of Al's statement is available via either of these links.

Quoting Al via the first article:

quote:
“I’m on the Judiciary committee and the Judiciary committee has jurisdiction (over) N.S.A. and on (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) and the Patriot Act,” he said. “I availed myself of these briefings so nothing surprised me and the architecture of these programs I was very well aware of.”

“I think there should be enough transparency that the American people understand what is happening…But I can assure you that this isn’t about spying on the American people.”

Franken, chairman of the Judiciary subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law, also said there are aspects of security programs that he should be aware of but the public should not.

“There are certain things that are appropriate for me to know that’s not appropriate for the bad guys to know,” he said. “Anything that quote the American people know, the bad guys know so there’s a line here, right? And there’s a balance that has to be struck between the responsibility of the federal government to protect the American people and then people’s right to privacy. We have safeguards in place …The American people can’t know everything because everything they know then, the bad guys will know.”

He said that the data the security agency has collected have kept Americans safe.

“I have a high level of confidence, that it is used…to protect us and I know that it has been successful in preventing terrorism,” he said.


Now I may be falling victim of authoritarianism, but sometimes you need to believe someone, and for me that is Al Franken.

A follow up article of sorts at "Little Green Footballs" says:

quote:
FISA Accountability and Privacy Protection Act Would Curtail Surveillance, Increase Transparency - A reasonable attempt at reform.

Unlike the knee-jerk “defund it!” of the Amash amendment, this new bill contains some meaty pro-transparency provisions:

quote:
As part of a bipartisan push to reform surveillance laws, Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., has introduced the FISA Accountability and Privacy Protection Act of 2013. The bill aims to bring more judicial oversight, public accountability, and transparency to the secret surveillance powers used by the NSA and FBI, focusing specifically on controversial sections of the Patriot Act and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The bill is co-sponsored by nine senators, including several outspoken critics of current spy laws, like Mark Udall, D-Colo., Ron Wyden D-Ore., Jeff Merkley, D-Ore., and Mike Lee, R-Utah.

More at the source page.

A little background on the "Little Green Footballs" blog:

Charles Johnson was part of the conservative blogosphere until a few years ago (for whatever it's worth, see WSJ: Franken Stole the Election from back in 2009). And compare the nature of comments then vs the nature of the comments in the current articles.

Anyway, Charles came to the conclusion, and I more or less accurately quote him - "The republican party has gone off the rails and is heading over the cliff, and I'm not going over the cliff with them". Although I'm sure that Charles is still pretty conservative, he has become a severe critic of the republican party, especially the right wing.

Moose

Final (maybe) added by edit:

Concerning the FISA Accountability and Privacy Protection Act. As I understand it, it is assigned to the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, Patrick Leahy chairman. It needs to be approved by that committee to get to the full Senate. I note that both Minnesota senators, Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken, are on the committee. We shall see how things go. Monitor this paragraphs first link page to track things.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Very minor tweak.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : ABE in my reply to the first quote (second line of this message).

Edited by Minnemooseus, : ABE at message end.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by dronestar, posted 07-26-2013 3:29 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by dronestar, posted 07-31-2013 9:31 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

    
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1362
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 93 of 119 (703946)
07-31-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Minnemooseus
07-30-2013 10:22 PM


Re: Al Franken on the NSA surveillance thing (OSLT)
Drone writes:

Al Franken supports the NSA surveillance program against americans

Minnemooseus writes:

As best as I know, that is true (ABE - Make that an agreement if you strike that "against americans" from the sentence).

Drone writes:

he voted AGAINST the Amash NSA Amendment (ends the indiscriminate collection of phone and email records) on Wednesday.

Minnemooseus writes:

I'm pretty sure that was a House of Representatives thing. Franken is in the Senate.

Yes, thanks for correcting me, I was conflating Franken's open support with spying on Americans in direct violation of the fourth amendment with the recent Amash NSA Amendment.

Yes, I have read Franken's weak reasoning why he supports spying on americans in direct violation of the fourth amendment. And I am tired of 'big daddy's' fear tactics which always amounts to this:

quote:
. . . the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Hermann Göring


So I simply ask, instead of needing to violate the fourth amendment, and many others, in the never-ending fight against 'terrorists', why doesn't america simply stop doing things that cause 'terrorists' to want to harm us?: Support of fanatical and violent actions of Israel over Palestine, support of fundamentalist dictators like fanatical human rights-violating Saudi Arabia, world hegemony of building military bases in every corner of the world, invasions of countries for their energy resources, crippling economic sanctions that murder children, etc, ?

Stopping these things would cost no money or violation of rights and liberties. America would go on to win the hearts and minds throughout the world. But, nooo, instead, Franken and his fellow nazis want to merely tweak a secret criminal system so that america can continue its imperial ways.

Screw that!

I did like Franken in the past, but the saying about absolute power corrupts is true, even for former clowns.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-30-2013 10:22 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 07-31-2013 9:50 AM dronestar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 94 of 119 (703948)
07-31-2013 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by dronestar
07-31-2013 9:31 AM


Re: Al Franken on the NSA surveillance thing (OSLT)
How is the 4th amendment being violated?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by dronestar, posted 07-31-2013 9:31 AM dronestar has not yet responded

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1362
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 95 of 119 (703950)
07-31-2013 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by ringo
07-30-2013 12:02 PM


Re: Michele Bachmann considering challenging Al Franken for his senate seat
RingO writes:

Are you being deliberately disingenuous? You know very well that you can renovate your home by "destroying" one room at a time.

There is irony of you needing to put "destroying" in quotes while questioning if I am being deliberately disingenuous.

Though you and Rahvin dislike my absolutist argument, you and him seem to be straining to come up with a satisfying counter-argument that broadly fits.

I wrote: One cannot support the constitution (as Franken stated in his oath) and attack it at the same time.

Franken is neither attacking the constitution to make it better as Rahvin's example suggested, nor is he attacking the constitution, even in portions, to renovate it, or to repair it, or to criticize it, as you have suggested. (Unless you use an extreme example of relativism, i.e., Hitler wants to 'improve' the constitution by creating a secret police state)

Yes, the amendments/constitituion is amendable. And that is done by a legal process. But that is NOT what Franken is doing. Franken solemnly swore that he will support the Constitution of the United States. Yet, Franken continues to support illegal and secret police-state behavior by the government. If america is a land of laws and democracy, Franken is attacking it.

RingO writes:

You're implying criminal intent, yet he faces no criminal charges. It seems that your position is the unconventional one.

Indubitably, violating the fourth amendment. I trust you're not going to extend your debate to Argumentum ad populum.

Drone writes:

"Democracy"?

RingO writes:

You haven't been very clear about that.

Perhaps you missed my last-second edit to my post, it might prove helpful. Take heed, this is going off-topic, so create a new thread if you want to raise more questions about democracy. . .

quote:
It is a fundamental principle of American democracy that laws should not be public only when it is convenient for government officials to make them public. They should be public all the time, open to review by adversarial courts, and subject to change by an accountable legislature guided by an informed public. If Americans are not able to learn how their government is interpreting and executing the law then we have effectively eliminated the most important bulwark of our democracy.

http://www.alternet.org/...n-nsa-spying-its-bad-snowden-says


Do you know what an oath is?

RingO writes:

Yes, it's an empty formality.

If you've ever made an oath in your life, was it willfully empty?

RingO writes:

It might be an interesting aside to discuss whether or not Hitler could have been tried for his crimes. (There's a novel called The Trial of Adolf Hitler by Phillipe van Rjndt that discusses some of the difficulties.)

Groan. I am on Federal Grand Jury duty for 18 MONTHS! (GROOOAN!!!) It's an endless procession of cases presented with legal double-talk by slick lawyers that strain definitions of words and actions. So, strained words, definitions, and special pleadings especially irritate me these days. If there may be technical difficulties in trying a monster like Hitler, I would mostly be sad to hear about them.

RingO writes:

But more appropriate to this topic is whether or not Al Franken can be tried for his "crimes".

US director of national intelligence James Clapper had lied to congress. That is a felony offense. At the least, the Obama administration should have fired his ass. It seems people like Bush Jr. and Cheney and James Clapper CAN almost always be tried for crimes, but they never are.

Let me read somewhere that Franken wants Clapper tried for lying to congress.

Edited by dronester, : added: Franken wants Clapper tried for lying to congress.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 07-30-2013 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 12:44 PM dronestar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 96 of 119 (703956)
07-31-2013 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by dronestar
07-31-2013 10:17 AM


dronester writes:

Franken is neither attacking the constitution to make it better as Rahvin's example suggested, nor is he attacking the constitution, even in portions, to renovate it, or to repair it, or to criticize it, as you have suggested.


You're drowning in your own opinion. You have no way of knowing what Franken's motivations are.

dronester writes:

(Unless you use an extreme example of relativism, i.e., Hitler wants to 'improve' the constitution by creating a secret police state)


Of course Hitler was trying to create a better world. Even if his vision of a better world was different from yours, it was very popular in Germany.

dronester writes:

Franken continues to support illegal and secret police-state behavior by the government.


I, for one, "support" marijuana use even though it's illegal because I don't believe it should be illegal. My support, in and of itself is not illegal. Using marijuana is illegal; supporting its use is not.

Of course, Franken is not actually establishing a police state even if he does support the idea of one.

dronester writes:

... violating the fourth amendment.


As far as I know, an individual - even a Senator- can not personally violate the Constitution. Only legislation passed by a pertinent body can violate the Constitution. Advocating the passage of legislation that would violate the Constitution is not in and of itself illegal.

dronester writes:

If you've ever made an oath in your life, was it willfully empty?


All oaths are inherently empty whether wilfully or not. I would trust a person less, not more, if he did what he did only because of an oath. I'd rather see him act on his convictions, whether I agree with them or not.

dronester writes:

If there may be technical difficulties in trying a monster like Hitler, I would mostly be sad to hear about them.


Not technical difficulties, practical difficulties - like what laws did he actually break? Americans can't try Hitler for breaking German laws or for breaking American laws outside America. "War crimes" and "crimes against humanity" tend to be tried according to laws made up after the fact. It's the equivalent of giving a speeding ticket to Ben-Hur.

You don't like Franken's views so you want him prosecuted even if you have to make up the propaganda occasion to do it.

If he was violating any laws, the officials who actually administer the law would do something about it. If he's abusing the system, the system can deal with him.

Edited by ringo, : Spellig.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by dronestar, posted 07-31-2013 10:17 AM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by dronestar, posted 07-31-2013 1:21 PM ringo has responded
 Message 98 by dronestar, posted 07-31-2013 1:32 PM ringo has responded

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1362
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 97 of 119 (703959)
07-31-2013 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
07-31-2013 12:44 PM


RingO writes:

You have no way of knowing what Franken's motivations are.

Huh?

Actually we do.

Read Franken's words here:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/23/opinion/franken-nsa-spying

Talk about disingenuous, he knew the National Security Agency secretly gathered personal data on Americans since 2007 , including their internet use and cell phone service. It is only now, AFTER Snowden revealed the secret spying program on americans in violation of the fourth amendment that Franken NOW wants to simply make it slightly more transparent. Ugh!

RingO writes:

Of course Hitler was trying to create a better world.

Yes, and Franken wants a similar type of 'better world.' What part of that is not scaring you?

RingO writes:

Of course, Franken is not actually establishing a police state even if he does support the idea of one.

Huh?

the National Security Agency HAS BEEN secretly gathering personal data on Americans since 2007, a violation of the fourth amendment, including their internet use and cell phone service.

RingO writes:

All oaths are inherently empty whether wilfully or not.

Now who is being an absolutist?

RingO writes:

Not technical difficulties, practical difficulties - like what laws did [Hitler] actually break?

Sheesh, they even found tax-evasion to convict Al Capone, I should think there must be something, SOMETHING to convict Hitler. Go ahead, create a new thread/topic, it might be interesting.

RingO writes:

If he was violating any laws, the officials who actually administer the law would do something about it.

Yeaaah, like Clapper being tried for lying to congress.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 12:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 1:42 PM dronestar has responded

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1362
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 98 of 119 (703960)
07-31-2013 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
07-31-2013 12:44 PM


RingO writes:

Even if [Hitler's] vision of a better world was different from yours, it was very popular in Germany.

It seems to be slightly less popular in today's Germany.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 12:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 1:46 PM dronestar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 99 of 119 (703963)
07-31-2013 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by dronestar
07-31-2013 1:21 PM


dronester writes:

Talk about disingenuous....


Indeed you are. We were talking about tearing down the whole house as opposed to renovating one room at a time and you claimed to know that Franken wants to destroy the whole Constitution. Now you're going off on a different tangent.

dronester writes:

Yes, and Franken wants a similar type of 'better world.' What part of that is not scaring you?


We're not talking about what scares me. We're talking about whether or not Senator Franken should be prosecuted. No matter how scary his views may be, are his views illegal? Can any view be illegal? Should any view be illegal?

dronester writes:

the National Security Agency HAS BEEN secretly gathering personal data on Americans since 2007, a violation of the fourth amendment, including their internet use and cell phone service.


Unless Franken controls the NSA, he isn't the one breaking the law. And as I mentioned, only acts of legislation can violate the Constitution, not acts of individuals or acts of institutions.

dronester writes:

Now who is being an absolutist?


I have never said that there are no absolutes.

Edited by ringo, : Inserted missingspace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by dronestar, posted 07-31-2013 1:21 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Rahvin, posted 07-31-2013 1:47 PM ringo has responded
 Message 104 by dronestar, posted 07-31-2013 4:30 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 100 of 119 (703964)
07-31-2013 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by dronestar
07-31-2013 1:32 PM


dronester writes:

ringo writes:

Even if [Hitler's] vision of a better world was different from yours, it was very popular in Germany.


It seems to be slightly less popular in today's Germany.

If people voted with 80-year hindsight, the world would be a very different place.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by dronestar, posted 07-31-2013 1:32 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by dronestar, posted 07-31-2013 4:36 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 101 of 119 (703965)
07-31-2013 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
07-31-2013 1:42 PM


And as I mentioned, only acts of legislation can violate the Constitution, not acts of individuals or acts ofinstitutions.

That's not entirely true. An individual police officer can perform actions that violate the Constitutional rights of citizens. A cop who illegally enters a home and retrieves evidence without a warrant has violated the Constitution as an individual. A police department that does this as a matter of policy has violated the Constitution as an institution.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 1:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 1:57 PM Rahvin has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13644
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 102 of 119 (703966)
07-31-2013 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Rahvin
07-31-2013 1:47 PM


Rahvin writes:

An individual police officer can perform actions that violate the Constitutional rights of citizens.


I understand that that is the colloquial use of the term "unconstitutional" in the U.S. but I think the distinction is important. Violating the Constitutional rights of citizens is not "violating the Constitution" per se. A law which permitted the violation of those rights would violate the Constitution. Individual police officers who violate citizens' rights are violating a law (which may be unwritten), not the Constitution itself.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Rahvin, posted 07-31-2013 1:47 PM Rahvin has responded

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 Message 103 by Rahvin, posted 07-31-2013 2:02 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 103 of 119 (703968)
07-31-2013 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
07-31-2013 1:57 PM


I understand that that is the colloquial use of the term "unconstitutional" in the U.S. but I think the distinction is important. Violating the Constitutional rights of citizens is not "violating the Constitution" per se. A law which permitted the violation of those rights would violate the Constitution. Individual police officers who violate citizens' rights are violating a law (which may be unwritten), not the Constitution itself.

The Amendments of the Constitution are themselves laws. They're referred to as "the highest law of the land." They're laws just like any others, except that they supersede any other laws in the case of a conflict.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 1:57 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1362
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 104 of 119 (703975)
07-31-2013 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
07-31-2013 1:42 PM


RingO writes:

We were talking about tearing down the whole house as opposed to renovating one room at a time

Franken is NOT criticizing, renovating, repairing, upholstering, painting, wallpapering, using excess duct tape, or spackling the 4th amendment.

Franken HAS BEEN and IS CONTINUING to support the violation of the fourth Amendment.

RingO writes:

We're talking about whether or not Senator Franken should be prosecuted. No matter how scary his views may be, are his views illegal? Can any view be illegal? Should any view be illegal?

You're going off-topic, but, Bush Jr made impeachable offenses in the white house (though never tried, go figure). But outside of that reference, I don't know or care what the legal mechanisms/prosecutions/sentences are for a senator actively supporting the violation of the 4th amendment, however an immediate stoppage to the active support would be minimal.

RingO writes:

Unless Franken controls the NSA, he isn't the one breaking the law. And as I mentioned, only acts of legislation can violate the Constitution, not acts of individuals or acts of institutions.

Rahvin's already rebutted the 2nd part of your argument. As for the first, Franken is the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law. Franken writes:

quote:
"As chairman of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law, a big part of my job is making sure that our privacy laws are keeping up with our technology."

Seems to me he is at least partly responsible for activities that are directed against the constitution. Especiailly since he swore an oath to protect the constitution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 1:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 5:08 PM dronestar has responded

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1362
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 105 of 119 (703976)
07-31-2013 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
07-31-2013 1:46 PM


RingO writes:

If people voted with 80-year hindsight, the world would be a very different place.

Agreed, unfortunately, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 07-31-2013 1:46 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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