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Author Topic:   ID daze in COURT ... Time to place your bets ...
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 16 of 52 (266841)
12-08-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jazzns
12-08-2005 11:51 AM


Re: Did anyone else read the transcripts?
Jazzns writes:
I also wanted to ask, for anyone else who read it, about the blatant lying of board members Bill Buckingham and Allan Bonsel.
The transcripts go on and on. For those of us who don't have several hours of free time, can you point us to the places in the transcripts where you believe Bill Buckingham and Allan Bonsel were lying?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jazzns, posted 12-08-2005 11:51 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Clark, posted 12-08-2005 1:18 PM Percy has replied
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 12-08-2005 1:34 PM Percy has not replied

Clark
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 52 (266845)
12-08-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
12-08-2005 1:10 PM


Re: Did anyone else read the transcripts?
Speaking Freely: Judge Jones: "I'm confused"
abe: wrong link
here you go:
http://www.stcynic.com/.../buckingham_lies_under_oath_in.php
http://www.stcynic.com/...buckinghams_second_lie_under_o.php
This message has been edited by Clark, 12-08-2005 01:20 PM
This message has been edited by Clark, 12-08-2005 01:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 12-08-2005 1:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 1:29 PM Clark has not replied
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 12-08-2005 5:39 PM Clark has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 52 (266850)
12-08-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Clark
12-08-2005 1:18 PM


Re: Did anyone else read the transcripts?
Having been "ambushed" myself on several occasions, I think "lie" is somewhat of an overstatement. There's no doubt that he was wrong, but lie implies active intent, not simply making a mistake. I would give him the benefit of the doubt in these cases, although that doesn not mean that the bigger lie, that "ID is simply Creationism lite" is not true.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Clark, posted 12-08-2005 1:18 PM Clark has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Jazzns, posted 12-08-2005 1:41 PM jar has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3902 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 19 of 52 (266852)
12-08-2005 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
12-08-2005 1:10 PM


Re: Did anyone else read the transcripts?
Clark gave some good links to the most blantant and punctuated cases of lying.
In general though there was a few threads of questioning throughout the trial that show how many of the defense witnesses were lying.
They generally denied ever mentioning the word "creationism" during any curriculium or board meetings. This was found to be directly false due to:
1. Video tape of Bill after a board meeting talking about creationism.
2. Testimony by BOTH plaintiff and defense witnesses confirming that creationism was the topic up until they recieved advice from their lawers and introduced the terminology "Intelligent Design" along side Pandas.
3. Notes and testimony from the district super and assistant super (defense witnesses) regarding the discussion of creationism at board retreats.
4. The fact that the assistant super was sent to a conference about the legality of teaching creationism.
5. Draft curriculium in nearly the exact language as what was finally adopted where "ID" had been replaced with "creationism".
The other place where Bill lied pretty directly was in the discrepancy between his deposition and testimony regarding the source of the funds for the purchase of Pandas. In his deposition he adamantly denied knowing where the funds came from or who the donors where. After the plaintiffs produced a copy of the check he wrote to give to Alan Bonsel's dad with the "for" line clearly marked "Of Pandas and People" he admitted that he took a collection at his church to raise money to buy the books.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 12-08-2005 1:10 PM Percy has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3902 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 20 of 52 (266856)
12-08-2005 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
12-08-2005 1:29 PM


Re: Did anyone else read the transcripts?
The problem is that he was no stranger to being interviewed by reporters and his use of creationism during meetings was confirmed by both plaintiff and defense witnesses on cross. The video is just icing on the cake of coraborating testimony.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 1:29 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-08-2005 1:50 PM Jazzns has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6013 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 21 of 52 (266860)
12-08-2005 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Jazzns
12-08-2005 1:41 PM


heavy evidence
I just read a bit of the transcripts - specifically the cross examination of Behe. Apparently he had made the comment on initial examination that there wasn't any scientific literature on the evolution of the immune system (one of his "IC" systems). The prosecution gave Behe 50+ major peer-reviewed articles, plus many books/books with chapters specifically discussing the evolution of the immune system.
After a few questions on the various materials just handed him, Behe asks the prosecuter, "would you like your books back? they are heavy."
Have to say that's my favorite moment thus far...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Jazzns, posted 12-08-2005 1:41 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Jazzns, posted 12-08-2005 2:59 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3902 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 22 of 52 (266875)
12-08-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by pink sasquatch
12-08-2005 1:50 PM


Re: heavy evidence
I have to say I enjoyed reading the defense case in chief and subsequent cross more than I enjoyed the plaintiff case in chief.
Behe was totally destroyed as well as their philosophy of science guy (I forgot his name).
For the plaintiffs I would recommend reading Miller's testimony as well as the testimony of the teachers if you want to get to the substance of the testimony on that side of the fence. The palentologist Pennock I think his name was was also a decent read.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-08-2005 1:50 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 23 of 52 (266939)
12-08-2005 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Clark
12-08-2005 1:18 PM


Re: Did anyone else read the transcripts?
Geez, cross examine me like that about last night's dinner and I'll be "lying", too. Buckingham may be a lot of things, but I don't think he's a liar.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Clark, posted 12-08-2005 1:18 PM Clark has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-08-2005 5:56 PM Percy has replied

Iblis
Member (Idle past 3886 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 24 of 52 (266943)
12-08-2005 5:54 PM


I might be lying about not remembering a specific word I might have used for concepts I clearly consider synonymous "in my heart" BUT if I tell you I don't know the source of something I bought myself, if I try and blame it on guys I wrote the check to for example? I'm lying then.

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6013 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 25 of 52 (266944)
12-08-2005 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
12-08-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Did anyone else read the transcripts?
Buckingham may be a lot of things, but I don't think he's a liar.
Really? The stuff about whether he had used the word "creationism" vs. "intelligent design" in specific instances did nothing to convince me he was being duplicitous - but what about the issue on the source of the textbooks?
He said that he had no idea where the books or the funds from the books came from, and had no interest in knowing, yet he himself took donations from the congregation of his church, and then wrote a check for the amount of the donations to the person who bought the books.
I honestly don't see how he could have completely forgotten doing all of that...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 12-08-2005 5:39 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Percy, posted 12-08-2005 7:09 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Iblis
Member (Idle past 3886 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 26 of 52 (266946)
12-08-2005 6:00 PM


sorry here
Q: Do you know where that came from, who donated them?
A: No, I don't.
Q: You have no idea?
A: I have thoughts, but I don't know.
Q: What are your thoughts?
A: I think it could have a tie to Alan Bonsell, who was board president at that time.
Q: Why do you think - I know you're not saying it was, but why do you think it might have ties to Mr. Bonsell?
A: Because he was president of the board at that time, and I just deduced that from that...
thanks

Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 27 of 52 (266969)
12-08-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by pink sasquatch
12-08-2005 5:56 PM


Re: Did anyone else read the transcripts?
You're right, he was lying about the source of the money for the Pandas books. I've changed my mind, he's a liar. Whoever posted those two links should forget the one about the first "lie". I saw what milquetoast it was and didn't bother reading the second link.
I did read Buckingham's testimony, starting at the top, for about 10 minutes, and achieving compatibility of current memories of old events to memories from 6 months ago contained in an deposition of the same old events seems an impossible task for anyone to achieve. But I agree soliciting the funds for the book is not something that realistically could be forgotten.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-08-2005 5:56 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3902 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 28 of 52 (268254)
12-12-2005 2:58 PM


Bump - Wondering why this is recieving so little attention here at EvC
I am actually suprised that more people here who share such a common interest at this forum have not brought the details of this trial up more often.
This goes not only for the Evos but the Creos as well. Do we collectivly really not care about this case?

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 12-12-2005 3:03 PM Jazzns has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 52 (268259)
12-12-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jazzns
12-12-2005 2:58 PM


Re: Bump - Wondering why this is recieving so little attention here at EvC
We care. But it is but one step in a long and continuing process.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jazzns, posted 12-12-2005 2:58 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jazzns, posted 12-12-2005 3:11 PM jar has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3902 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 30 of 52 (268266)
12-12-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
12-12-2005 3:03 PM


Re: Bump - Wondering why this is recieving so little attention here at EvC
I guess I should have said; What else is on the forefront of the debate other than this court case?
We are talking about precident that may involve redefining what religion is, redefining what science is, how the establishment clause is treated in the future. Basically it involved everything that everyone is here at this board to discuss. Yet it seems that only a handful have actually deeply interested in the actual details of the case.
Just seems very weird.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 12-12-2005 3:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 12-12-2005 3:16 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 33 by Trixie, posted 12-12-2005 3:41 PM Jazzns has replied

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