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Member (Idle past 1395 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: ID daze in COURT ... Time to place your bets ... | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Jazzns writes: I also wanted to ask, for anyone else who read it, about the blatant lying of board members Bill Buckingham and Allan Bonsel. The transcripts go on and on. For those of us who don't have several hours of free time, can you point us to the places in the transcripts where you believe Bill Buckingham and Allan Bonsel were lying? --Percy
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Clark Inactive Member |
Speaking Freely: Judge Jones: "I'm confused"
abe: wrong link here you go: http://www.stcynic.com/.../buckingham_lies_under_oath_in.phphttp://www.stcynic.com/...buckinghams_second_lie_under_o.php This message has been edited by Clark, 12-08-2005 01:20 PM This message has been edited by Clark, 12-08-2005 01:21 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Having been "ambushed" myself on several occasions, I think "lie" is somewhat of an overstatement. There's no doubt that he was wrong, but lie implies active intent, not simply making a mistake. I would give him the benefit of the doubt in these cases, although that doesn not mean that the bigger lie, that "ID is simply Creationism lite" is not true.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3902 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Clark gave some good links to the most blantant and punctuated cases of lying.
In general though there was a few threads of questioning throughout the trial that show how many of the defense witnesses were lying. They generally denied ever mentioning the word "creationism" during any curriculium or board meetings. This was found to be directly false due to:1. Video tape of Bill after a board meeting talking about creationism. 2. Testimony by BOTH plaintiff and defense witnesses confirming that creationism was the topic up until they recieved advice from their lawers and introduced the terminology "Intelligent Design" along side Pandas. 3. Notes and testimony from the district super and assistant super (defense witnesses) regarding the discussion of creationism at board retreats. 4. The fact that the assistant super was sent to a conference about the legality of teaching creationism. 5. Draft curriculium in nearly the exact language as what was finally adopted where "ID" had been replaced with "creationism". The other place where Bill lied pretty directly was in the discrepancy between his deposition and testimony regarding the source of the funds for the purchase of Pandas. In his deposition he adamantly denied knowing where the funds came from or who the donors where. After the plaintiffs produced a copy of the check he wrote to give to Alan Bonsel's dad with the "for" line clearly marked "Of Pandas and People" he admitted that he took a collection at his church to raise money to buy the books. No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3902 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
The problem is that he was no stranger to being interviewed by reporters and his use of creationism during meetings was confirmed by both plaintiff and defense witnesses on cross. The video is just icing on the cake of coraborating testimony.
No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6013 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
I just read a bit of the transcripts - specifically the cross examination of Behe. Apparently he had made the comment on initial examination that there wasn't any scientific literature on the evolution of the immune system (one of his "IC" systems). The prosecution gave Behe 50+ major peer-reviewed articles, plus many books/books with chapters specifically discussing the evolution of the immune system.
After a few questions on the various materials just handed him, Behe asks the prosecuter, "would you like your books back? they are heavy." Have to say that's my favorite moment thus far...
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3902 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I have to say I enjoyed reading the defense case in chief and subsequent cross more than I enjoyed the plaintiff case in chief.
Behe was totally destroyed as well as their philosophy of science guy (I forgot his name). For the plaintiffs I would recommend reading Miller's testimony as well as the testimony of the teachers if you want to get to the substance of the testimony on that side of the fence. The palentologist Pennock I think his name was was also a decent read. No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Geez, cross examine me like that about last night's dinner and I'll be "lying", too. Buckingham may be a lot of things, but I don't think he's a liar.
--Percy
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Iblis Member (Idle past 3886 days) Posts: 663 Joined: |
I might be lying about not remembering a specific word I might have used for concepts I clearly consider synonymous "in my heart" BUT if I tell you I don't know the source of something I bought myself, if I try and blame it on guys I wrote the check to for example? I'm lying then.
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6013 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
Buckingham may be a lot of things, but I don't think he's a liar. Really? The stuff about whether he had used the word "creationism" vs. "intelligent design" in specific instances did nothing to convince me he was being duplicitous - but what about the issue on the source of the textbooks? He said that he had no idea where the books or the funds from the books came from, and had no interest in knowing, yet he himself took donations from the congregation of his church, and then wrote a check for the amount of the donations to the person who bought the books. I honestly don't see how he could have completely forgotten doing all of that...
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Iblis Member (Idle past 3886 days) Posts: 663 Joined: |
sorry here
Q: Do you know where that came from, who donated them?
thanks
A: No, I don't. Q: You have no idea? A: I have thoughts, but I don't know. Q: What are your thoughts? A: I think it could have a tie to Alan Bonsell, who was board president at that time. Q: Why do you think - I know you're not saying it was, but why do you think it might have ties to Mr. Bonsell? A: Because he was president of the board at that time, and I just deduced that from that... |
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Percy Member Posts: 22359 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
You're right, he was lying about the source of the money for the Pandas books. I've changed my mind, he's a liar. Whoever posted those two links should forget the one about the first "lie". I saw what milquetoast it was and didn't bother reading the second link.
I did read Buckingham's testimony, starting at the top, for about 10 minutes, and achieving compatibility of current memories of old events to memories from 6 months ago contained in an deposition of the same old events seems an impossible task for anyone to achieve. But I agree soliciting the funds for the book is not something that realistically could be forgotten. --Percy
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3902 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I am actually suprised that more people here who share such a common interest at this forum have not brought the details of this trial up more often.
This goes not only for the Evos but the Creos as well. Do we collectivly really not care about this case? No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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jar Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
We care. But it is but one step in a long and continuing process.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3902 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I guess I should have said; What else is on the forefront of the debate other than this court case?
We are talking about precident that may involve redefining what religion is, redefining what science is, how the establishment clause is treated in the future. Basically it involved everything that everyone is here at this board to discuss. Yet it seems that only a handful have actually deeply interested in the actual details of the case. Just seems very weird. No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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