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Author Topic:   Behe Bit It (Michael Behe on "The Colbert Report")
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 23 of 152 (414403)
08-04-2007 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rob
08-03-2007 10:27 PM


I say that in case you think of giving a snowflake as your example. It is created by simple laws and chemistry. But where did the laws come from? Why are the phisical laws just so? And what happens when we change them?
If you want to retreat into Deism, I don't think anyone's going to stop you.
But you won't read it... it doesn't fit your agenda.
So... as NJ and I agree, there is no method we can use to speak on this matter. You have your mind made up. It's called bias. Or more affectionately, as 'methodological naturalism'.
And you made it so far through your post without posting blatant nonsense --- and then you choked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Rob, posted 08-03-2007 10:27 PM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by anastasia, posted 08-04-2007 1:56 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 61 of 152 (414575)
08-04-2007 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Rob
08-04-2007 9:25 AM


We have emperical evidence for design. When we see digital and pictographical languages in archeaology we infer design. We do not suppose that wind and erosion (natural processes) etched the patterns.
And any machines that appear in the ashses, like chariots and brick cities, be they symmetrical or not, are not assumed to be natural either. We infer civilization.
And when archaeologists dig up, for example, the skull of a leopard, they infer that it's the product of natural causes, and don't go looking for the civilization which designed it.
Thanks for playing.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Rob, posted 08-04-2007 9:25 AM Rob has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 94 of 152 (414854)
08-06-2007 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Hyroglyphx
08-05-2007 6:56 PM


Re: No problem at all
Then by the same token creationism and ID are the same.
Well, that depends who you listen to.
"Creation means that the various forms of life began abruptly through the agency of an intelligent creator with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc." (Of Pandas and People, first draft.)
"Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features already intact: Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks and wings." (Of Pandas and People, as it was eventually published.)
Are you kidding me? I'll kindly remind you what the Scopes Trial was all about. Proponents of evolution said that schools must make a special dispensation for the theory. They won that case.
What you mean by "special dispensation", I have no idea. The "Monkey Law" was targetted specifically against evolution:
"AN ACT prohibiting the teaching of the Evolution Theory in all the Universities, Normals and all other public schools of Tennessee, which are supported in whole or in part by the public school funds of the State, and to provide penalties for the violations thereof."
Then what else am I to deduce, Percy? Nobody was particularly outraged by phrenology. But it appears that some people are going to implode at the mere mention of ID.
No-one is promoting phrenology any more. (Which didn't stop Stephen Jay Gould from having a go at it.) Crackpots aren't trying to get phrenology taught in schools. If someone was proposing that we should teach children to distinguish the inferiority of black people by observing the shapes of their heads, I for one would be more than a little perturbed.
Its real simple. Nothing can't create everything. Nothing that exists within the physical world did not come to exist without causation.
Too many negatives. But when you've unscrambled what you're trying to say, would you like to say what this dubious proposition can possibly have to do with Intelligent Design?
Even supposing that was the case, why is that evolutionists are allowed to dismiss Haeckle, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Archaeoraptor, Peppered moths etc, for the demonstrable frauds they are, and get to say that those stains do not speak for the majority?
Because five cases of alledged fraud over a century or so obviously do not represent the majority of biological research.
You must also have been on these boards long enough to know that you are lying when you claim that Nebraska Man and Peppered Moth research involved "fraud", and, just in case you are under the illusion that telling known lies helps your case (which would explain the behavior of many creationists), then let me inform you that it does not. It makes your tissue-thin case look even flimsier. In the case of the Peppered Moth, I may add, your spiteful lies involve slandering persons still living. Do you people ever feel ashamed of yourselves?
Archaeoraptor, of course, was an attempted fraud on scientists, not one perpetrated by them.
Despite your valiant attempts to read the mind of persons unknown, we have no idea who was behind Piltdown Man or why.
That leaves you with one definite fraudulent scientist, Haeckel, who was trying to prop up a hypothesis other than the theory of evolution.
And this is the best you can come up with?
Thanks for playing.
They're called theories for a reason, Percy. It means we don't know fully.
That is not the reason, and, dammit, you know that perfectly well too.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2007 6:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 98 of 152 (414957)
08-07-2007 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Hyroglyphx
08-06-2007 9:20 PM


Re: No problem at all
The disparity is what I was trying to distinguish. Reason being, it was basically said that the ID movement is about pushing Christianity in schools. But that isn't true ...
"Intelligent design is just the logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory." --- William Dembski
So what, though? If you get to say that ID is pushing Christianity, then I get to say that evolutionists are pushing atheism by the same token.
You can say that, but you wouldn't be telling the truth, which would kind of vitiate your argument, wouldn't it?
It springs from looking around you and surmising that 0 + 0 = everything doesn't add up. Its a logical deduction with or without Christianity. Heck, these teleological arguments predate Christianity and are well attested for in virtually the entire pantheon, albeit, however crude their arguments may have been.
It springs from a philosophical view just like most everything else. Darwin's initial observations follow science. I make a point not to demonize the man, as he was just doing his job. His predecessors have taken on all of the trappings associated with the postmodernist movement that swept through Europe during the time when Origins were completed. For most evolutionists it is not, by any stretch, a dispassionate endeavor. There is much philosophical meaning derived from it. Your forum, alone, is ample evidence of that.
So, a couple of the usual creationist lies. First you pretend that the theory of evolution is that "0 + 0 = everything", which you know to be a lie, and then you prentend that evolution has some "philosophy" attached to it when you know perfectly well that evolution is accepted by people of all faiths and none.
And this is what I don't understand about you people.
You're lying. And we know you're lying. And you know you're lying. And you know that we know that you're lying. And we know that you know that you're lying. And we know that you know that we know that you know that you're lying.
So why are you lying?
Whom do you hope to deceive?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-06-2007 9:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-07-2007 7:32 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 125 of 152 (415147)
08-08-2007 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Hyroglyphx
08-07-2007 11:17 PM


Re: No problem at all
Look, Paul said, specifically, that Behe is a liar, yet provided NO evidence of said lies. I asked him at least three times to support his assertion. He couldn't. He just keeps saying that ID'ists are liars, blah, blah, blah. They're just mean-spirited talking points that he's erroneously fashioned in his mind.
Then he gives me some asinine example of the supposed "lies," and attempts to indict ALL of Intelligent Design with it. I then ever-so-gently reminded him of the monumental, demonstrable frauds associated with evolution...
And you were lying, remember?
So if you want examples of lies and fraud in ID, just take a good look in a mirror.
Stop trying to stack the deck against me and have your own side except some personal responsibility.
Funnee. Of course, it is "our side" which responsibly discovered that Piltdown Man, for example, was a fake, and responsibly went around telling everyone. The only reason you think Piltdown Man is a fake is because evolutionists told you --- and for once, you decided to trust them.
Meanwhile, your stupid vicious libel about Peppered Moths remains part of the stock-in-trade of creationist liars; and the ugly lies which you recite about Nebraska Man have endured a dozen times longer than "Nebraska Man" itself. When will you guys accept that you, too, have a responsibility to tell the truth? When will you get over your fixation with Genesis and read the Ninth COmmandment?
I'm not holding my breath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-07-2007 11:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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