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Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2293 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 241 of 300 (277174)
01-08-2006 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by macaroniandcheese
01-08-2006 1:03 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
Brenna, may I suggest that if you do not want to discuss your dreams that you not bring them up in a discussion forum?

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 239 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 1:03 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 1327 days)
    Posts: 712
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 242 of 300 (277175)
    01-08-2006 1:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 231 by Ben!
    01-08-2006 11:29 AM


    Re: Ghost limbs
    Ben writes:
    Hi Mr. Ex,
    I'm always glad to get constructive, head-on responses. That's why we're here, right? To discuss what we know, ask questions, etc. When people face issues head-on, I feel the opportunity to learn and to be understood. It's a good feeling.
    Understanding each other is good.
    Ben writes:
    I would say it a little differently, but I think you've got it. I haven't seen evidence that forces any view of the mind as being anything more than due to 'matter that has attained a certain degree of organization.' I am certainly open to examining new evidence, or re-examining old evidence.
    Has anyone been able to produce intelligence via computer networking on the level seen within humans?
    If what you say is true, it seems as though one could simply increases the level of calculations in order to arrive at a virtual intelligence rivaling that of human intelligence.
    Ben writes:
    This can be explained physically by saying that motor function is localized in the brain, and that when motion is detected without internal stimulation, that it is interpreted as "not me doing it." This itself doesn't mean there's no physical instantiation of "will to move".
    But it does seem to indicate it.
    In other words, one has to invoke a theoretical premise in order to explain away the fact that one's consciousness can act independantly of the brain's funtions.
    I'm not saying that we know everything concering the brain's functions. I'm sure there will be many more amazing discoveries over the next century. However, what's being sought after by invoking this premise notwed above is an explanation as to why our consciousness is not what it quite plainly appears to be -- something which can act independently of our brain.
    I'll read more of this information later on tonight (I've got to pick up my youngest from a birthday party at the YMCA). However, it seems as if the information you've supplied will be interesting reading.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 11:29 AM Ben! has replied

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    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 1327 days)
    Posts: 712
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 243 of 300 (277176)
    01-08-2006 1:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 237 by crashfrog
    01-08-2006 1:01 PM


    Re: Ghost limbs
    How about you answer my question?
    Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
    But, since you seem to be suggesting that your answer (old enough to know better) somehow excused you of something in contrast to my reply, I'll ask what you felt you needed an excuse for?
    I'll check to see if you answered this later on tonight.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 237 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 1:01 PM crashfrog has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 247 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 1:50 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6408
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 4.2


    Message 244 of 300 (277177)
    01-08-2006 1:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
    01-08-2006 12:49 PM


    Re: Mind and matter
    Not having read the book, I can't comment.
    What it suggests is that the mind is something which can work independently from the brain itself. In other words, the basic observation is that people are quite aware of the fact that they are not "willingly" doing the actions that these electrical signals are producing in them. In fact, they can (and have) resisted these impusles using their own consciousness working independently of their own brain synapses.
    I disagree with that.
    A few years ago, while driving, I was applying the breaks. The car was pretty slow. It should have stopped within another six inches. It didn't. It lurched into the car in front, causing significant damage to both.
    Did my car have a mind independent of its physical components? No, it was just that somebody crashed into the rear of my car, and the force of the collision overrode what would normally have been able to control it.
    It is the same with the experiments you are describing. Electrical signals were injected, and these directly stimulated motor neurons, causing the movement. The injected signals overrode the volitional control signals from other parts of the brain. I really don't think there is any mystery here.
    The researchers I've quoted were actively searching for purely naturalistic causalities within the brain to conclude to the brain itself is the sum total of a person's consciousness. Contrary to what they were expecting to find, however, they found convincing data which appeared to contradict their own assumptions in regards to the "seat of consciousness".
    That only shows that we do not yet fully understand the basis for consciousness. It isn't evidence against material causation.
    It seems as though Julia Mossbridge might be working on it.
    Here's her CV for your perusal.
    I'm not familiar with her work. The titles of her publications do not raise any eyebrows.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:49 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 269 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 1:05 AM nwr has replied

    Ben!
    Member (Idle past 1389 days)
    Posts: 1161
    From: Hayward, CA
    Joined: 10-14-2004


    Message 245 of 300 (277178)
    01-08-2006 1:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 242 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
    01-08-2006 1:14 PM


    Re: Ghost limbs
    Has anyone been able to produce intelligence via computer networking on the level seen within humans?
    If what you say is true, it seems as though one could simply increases the level of calculations in order to arrive at a virtual intelligence rivaling that of human intelligence.
    The short answer is, no.
    The long answer is that it takes more than just computing power. It takes understanding of very low-level processing in the brain. We don't really have the tools to understand it to the level that we can simulate it.
    We've done an OK job simulating parts of human cognition--specifically, the things I mentioned that were localized. The things that are distributed, we understand less specifically, and so are left 'guessing' in our simulations.
    I don't see any impediment to simulation in the future. When we have the knowledge, we'll be able to simulate it.
    Note that I fully concur with nwr that the full body, and not just part (brain) needs to be considered to properly understand cognition.
    I'll read more of this information later on tonight (I've got to pick up my youngest from a birthday party at the YMCA). However, it seems as if the information you've supplied will be interesting reading.
    I would HIGHLY recommend using this set of talks by Ramachandran as a good starting point for you. sidelined provided the link for it originally at EvC, here. That might also be a good place to move this discussion, because we're pretty well off-topic for this thread.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 242 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 1:14 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

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    AdminAsgara
    Administrator (Idle past 2293 days)
    Posts: 2073
    From: The Universe
    Joined: 10-11-2003


    Message 246 of 300 (277179)
    01-08-2006 1:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 245 by Ben!
    01-08-2006 1:28 PM


    Re: Ghost limbs
    Just an aside for the less psy/cog knowledgable. These lectures are fascinating and definately done at a level that even laypersons can easily understand.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 245 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 1:28 PM Ben! has not replied

    crashfrog
    Member (Idle past 1457 days)
    Posts: 19762
    From: Silver Spring, MD
    Joined: 03-20-2003


    Message 247 of 300 (277181)
    01-08-2006 1:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 243 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
    01-08-2006 1:16 PM


    Re: Ghost limbs
    How about you answer my question?
    Your question doesn't make any sense, and it doesn't appear to be on topic.
    In fact it doesn't appear to be anything but a dodge. How about you answer my questions now? Or is nonsense the best you're capable of?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 243 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 1:16 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

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    Adminnemooseus
    Administrator
    Posts: 3974
    Joined: 09-26-2002


    Message 248 of 300 (277183)
    01-08-2006 2:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 240 by macaroniandcheese
    01-08-2006 1:04 PM


    Official warning to brennakimi
    haha no. i was just being funny.
    The above sure seems to be representitive of many (most?) of your messages here at . Peppering topics with trite irrelevant one liners.
    If you are not going to post relevant messages of substance, please stop posting.
    This situation has been going on for quite a while.
    I'm serious about this. As in, follow my suggestion or a suspension may well be coming.
    To other members - If you are also doing these "brennikimi type" postings, please stop.
    Any replies to this message should go the "General . " topic, link below.
    Adminnemooseus

    New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 240 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 1:04 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 249 of 300 (277186)
    01-08-2006 2:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 247 by crashfrog
    01-08-2006 1:50 PM


    Yellow Alert - No Advancement
    Crashfrog and Mr. ExNihilo
    Caution Your posts associated with Message 212 have not served to further this discussion.
    Remember to argue the position and not the person.
    Mr. ExNihilo, you did not address crashfrog's post (Message 212) in a manner that added to the discussion.
    Please direct any comments concerning this post to the appropriate link listed below.
    Thank you Purple

    Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 247 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 1:50 PM crashfrog has not replied

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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2160 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 250 of 300 (277202)
    01-08-2006 3:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 239 by macaroniandcheese
    01-08-2006 1:03 PM


    Re: Ghost limbs
    quote:
    oh go away.
    LOL!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 239 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 1:03 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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     Message 252 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 8:12 PM nator has not replied

    macaroniandcheese 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
    Posts: 4258
    Joined: 05-24-2004


    Message 251 of 300 (277304)
    01-08-2006 8:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 241 by AdminAsgara
    01-08-2006 1:07 PM


    Re: Ghost limbs
    it did not seem to me that she was discussing it, but rather harassing me for an unrelated topic. i do not appreciate harassment and do not respond well to it. i did not bring the topic up to her and was not discussing the importance of the dreams so much as the idea of genetic memory as opposed to reincarnation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 241 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-08-2006 1:07 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 253 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 9:33 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

    macaroniandcheese 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
    Posts: 4258
    Joined: 05-24-2004


    Message 252 of 300 (277306)
    01-08-2006 8:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 250 by nator
    01-08-2006 3:26 PM


    Re: Ghost limbs

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 250 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 3:26 PM nator has not replied

    nator
    Member (Idle past 2160 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 253 of 300 (277331)
    01-08-2006 9:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 251 by macaroniandcheese
    01-08-2006 8:12 PM


    Re: Ghost limbs
    quote:
    it did not seem to me that she was discussing it, but rather harassing me for an unrelated topic.
    Let me explain why I think it was relevant. You were giving an example of something that you thought gave credence to various "miraculous" or "supernatural" ideas discussed in this thread. I was not "harassing" you, but pointing out reasons your example was not very compelling. I do understand that my thoroughness can be offputting, but I simply can't agree that it was irrelevant.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 251 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 8:12 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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     Message 254 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 9:44 PM nator has not replied

    macaroniandcheese 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
    Posts: 4258
    Joined: 05-24-2004


    Message 254 of 300 (277334)
    01-08-2006 9:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 253 by nator
    01-08-2006 9:33 PM


    Re: Ghost limbs
    i was not giving evidence. i was discussing an anecdote. i also described it as being caused by what i thing of as a very natural phenomenon that we just don't understand yet rather than the supernatural one of reincarnation of a soul. your 'thourougness' was in response to an unrelated discussion and both completely irrelevant and insulting.
    but then i forget that you can do no wrong.
    This message has been edited by brennakimi, 01-08-2006 09:44 PM

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    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 1327 days)
    Posts: 712
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 255 of 300 (277335)
    01-08-2006 9:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 236 by crashfrog
    01-08-2006 1:00 PM


    Re: Can anyone define a miracle for me? Anyone?
    No. Quite the opposite.
    I'm suggesting a theory that human souls might be detectable with the hypothesis that they produce a Casimir effect. In other words, I'm suggesting a theory that human souls can produce a 'vacuumn tension' effect. I also think that this hypothetical soul effect will someday be linked with a human consciousness that can exist independantly of its own brain.
    Edit: clarified some points.
    This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-08-2006 10:44 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 236 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 1:00 PM crashfrog has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 271 by crashfrog, posted 01-09-2006 1:20 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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