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Author Topic:   ID Failing--at Christian Institutions
AdminNWR
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Message 16 of 38 (267965)
12-11-2005 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by MangyTiger
12-11-2005 10:46 PM


Stay on topic
Let's avoid the personal sniping


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 17 of 38 (267998)
12-12-2005 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Omnivorous
12-10-2005 9:28 PM


Re: just cause it bears repeating (or is that bares?)
What scientist worth her salt wouldn't respond to a direct invitation to seek grant money from a sympathetic, well-heeled grantor?
what person couldn't find a way to spend some grant money?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Omnivorous, posted 12-10-2005 9:28 PM Omnivorous has replied

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 18 of 38 (268085)
12-12-2005 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by arachnophilia
12-12-2005 12:36 AM


Re: just cause it bears repeating (or is that bares?)
arachnophilia writes:
what person couldn't find a way to spend some grant money?
Bingo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by arachnophilia, posted 12-12-2005 12:36 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 12-12-2005 2:54 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 19 of 38 (268090)
12-12-2005 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Omnivorous
12-03-2005 9:50 PM


West is a political scientist, remember.
Not a real one

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 20 of 38 (268095)
12-12-2005 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by randman
12-11-2005 3:57 PM


Re: I wouldn't count ID out.
quote:
1. Researching adaptive mutations.
What are the ID predictions regarding adaptive mutations?
quote:
2. Researching degrees of non-randomness in mutations.
What are the ID predictions regarding non-randomness in mutations?
quote:
3. Comprehensively researching the fossil record, such as the theorized land mammal to whale evolution, to see if the numbers of fossils of theorized transitional species is what one would expect for ID or for evolutionary models.
(Of course, the ToE makes no predictions at all about how many fossils there will be, only that they exist at all)
What are the predictions of ID regarding how many fossils one would expect?
quote:
5. Quantum physics research that could be related, except this would be hard to do unless one could fine a QM physics researcher interested in the subject.
What are the predictions of ID related to QM?
quote:
6. Researching consciousness since presumably ID would need to include a Designer with consciousness. For example, researching NDEs more could be a start to defining what human consciousness is in terms of where it occurs.
What are the ID predictions regarding the origins of consciousness?
You will need to make very specific predictions in your grant proposal, randman, if you want to get real research money.
Of course, I suspect that no ID proponents could answer these very simple scientific questions and that is why they couldn't manage to submit a suitable application for the research grants.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-12-2005 09:39 AM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 21 of 38 (268173)
12-12-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by nator
12-12-2005 9:36 AM


Re: I wouldn't count ID out.
What are the ID predictions regarding adaptive mutations?
That they exhibit a non-random mechanism for mutation in response to an external stimuli that on it's own does not cause the mutation, but the cause stems from the embedded design within DNA.
What are the ID predictions regarding non-randomness in mutations?
That there are non-random mechanisms involved in DNA mutations; some are known of course, and others such as the cause of adaptive mutations are under research. Providing an overview of what causes non-random mutations, and proposing research into possible other areas would be of interest.
(Of course, the ToE makes no predictions at all about how many fossils there will be, only that they exist at all)
Wrong ToE predicts a process occurred. One can look at the fossil record to see if the fossil record indicates ToE occurred as evos claim, or did not. For example, evos claim the reason 99.9% of transitional forms are not seen is due to fossil rarity, but that is an unsubstantiated claim because it does not explain why, if fossilization is so rare, it is also so common for many species.
What are the predictions of ID related to QM?
That there is a deeper reality within the universe governing over what people considered "material" 100 plus years ago, and that this deeper aspect contains properties normally associated in prior times with spiritual descriptions on how the universe works.
What are the ID predictions regarding the origins of consciousness?
That is exists. The purpose of the research would be to define it's properties so science can have a better working basis in which to include consciousness in it's theories on the universe and real world.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by MangyTiger, posted 12-12-2005 2:48 PM randman has replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 22 of 38 (268239)
12-12-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by randman
12-11-2005 10:23 PM


Re: I wouldn't count ID out.
So you can't provide any examples of ID research being funded.
Correct?

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 23 of 38 (268248)
12-12-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by randman
12-12-2005 12:59 PM


Re: I wouldn't count ID out.
For example, evos claim the reason 99.9% of transitional forms are not seen is due to fossil rarity,
Please provide a source where an evolutionary biologist or paleontologist (or a scientist in any other relevant discipline) states that 99.9% of transitional forms are not seen and that this is due to fossil rarity.
but that is an unsubstantiated claim because it does not explain why, if fossilization is so rare, it is also so common for many species.
Please provide quantitative research demonstrating fossilation is so common for many species. This will need to explain how the calculation of how many individuals existed vs. how many fossilised was done (just as a start).

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by randman, posted 12-12-2005 12:59 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by randman, posted 12-12-2005 4:51 PM MangyTiger has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 24 of 38 (268252)
12-12-2005 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Omnivorous
12-12-2005 9:00 AM


Re: just cause it bears repeating (or is that bares?)
arachnophilia writes:
what person couldn't find a way to spend some grant money?
Bingo.
i mean, like, book publishing, fancy dinners, lots and lots of mousetraps. i could find LOTS of stuff to do with grant money.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Omnivorous, posted 12-12-2005 9:00 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Omnivorous, posted 12-12-2005 3:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 25 of 38 (268289)
12-12-2005 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by arachnophilia
12-12-2005 2:54 PM


Re: just cause it bears repeating (or is that bares?)
arachnophilia writes:
i mean, like, book publishing, fancy dinners, lots and lots of mousetraps. i could find LOTS of stuff to do with grant money.
A little grant money would certainly further my intelligent designs.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 26 of 38 (268315)
12-12-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by MangyTiger
12-12-2005 2:48 PM


Re: I wouldn't count ID out.
Mangy, you asked. I answered. I think further substantiating the fossil arguments, etc,...takes us to other threads, which you are welcome to participate on, which contain quite a bit of material answering your questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by MangyTiger, posted 12-12-2005 2:48 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by MangyTiger, posted 12-12-2005 5:25 PM randman has replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 27 of 38 (268340)
12-12-2005 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by randman
12-12-2005 4:51 PM


Re: I wouldn't count ID out.
Mangy, you asked. I answered
You posted this in your Message 26. Here is the message chain preceding it:
Message 26 - your reply to me in
Message 23 - my reply to you in
Message 21 - your reply to schrafinator in
Message 20 - her reply to you in
Message 9 - your general post to the thread
Could you show me where in this chain you answered these questions:
Please provide a source where an evolutionary biologist or paleontologist (or a scientist in any other relevant discipline) states that 99.9% of transitional forms are not seen and that this is due to fossil rarity.
Please provide quantitative research demonstrating fossilation is so common for many species. This will need to explain how the calculation of how many individuals existed vs. how many fossilised was done (just as a start).
If you want to link to a message in another thread where appropriate research has been cited that's fine of course.
I believe Forum rules require you to produce evidence to back up your claims. You made the claims in Message 21 - produce evidence or withdraw them.

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by randman, posted 12-12-2005 4:51 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by randman, posted 12-12-2005 5:49 PM MangyTiger has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 28 of 38 (268350)
12-12-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by MangyTiger
12-12-2005 5:25 PM


Re: I wouldn't count ID out.
Mangy, no, because it would seriously take this thread off-topic.
Tell you what. See if I can make a facetious point. Can you substantiate the dictionary definitions in all of the words you have used on this thread so we can see if they are accurate? Please spend several hours listing definitions from at least 3 dictionaries.
In the context of this thread, I commented on areas I can think of for ID research in response to someone else's comments along those lines. It was already going off-topic right there.
I decided to veer close to off-topic stating I can think of some. You asked for more details, and I gave them to you. That's where it ends. The relavant point is that there are claims that ID research is possible. Getting into more specifics is against the rules for this thread, even by my loose standards.
Now you are asking for even more details, thus demanding I take this thread completely off-topic, and I am not going to do that mangy. More details on fossilization, etc,...comprise several enture threads, and you know that.
If you want to appeal to a moderator on this, please do so but quit taking this thread more off-topic than it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by MangyTiger, posted 12-12-2005 5:25 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 29 of 38 (268375)
12-12-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by randman
12-12-2005 5:49 PM


Re: I wouldn't count ID out.
I did specifically state all you had to do was point to another thread where your claims were substantiated (which is not just a thread on the same topic by the way). Although I didn't explicitly state it this would have allowed the discussion to proceed outside of this thread.
You are apparently unable or unwilling to do.
The record shows you made a claim and would not either back it up or withdraw it.
I'm content to leave it at that.

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 38 (268426)
12-12-2005 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by nator
12-12-2005 9:36 AM


Re: I wouldn't count ID out.
not just "what are the predictions"
but "what are the predictions of ID theory {X} that differentiate it from current theory - ie majority of evidence explained better by ID theory {X} such that ID theory {X} has better predictive value - and that if invalidated falsify ID theory {X}"
EXAMPLE:
Evidence: some bioligical systems are very complex in operation and involve many elements to accomplish certain tasks.
Observation: Some subsystems of biological systems are "Irreducibly Complex" (IC) such that the removal of any part of the subsystem renders it inoperative.
ID theory {X} = The existence of IC systems is evidence that something other than evolution is at work - such as the work of an "Intelligent Designer" - because the elements of such systems could not have all evolved simultaneously.
Prediction of ID theory {X} = IF there is no way for such a system to evolve, THEN it must have occured by some other method, such as ID.
Experimental evidence shows that "IC" systems can and have evolved (a couple have been observed).
Result: ID theory {X} - "IC" - is an invalidated (falsified) theory, it cannot differentiate ID systems from evolved systems, and it has no measurable value.
That kind of thing.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 12*12*2005 09:01 PM

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This message is a reply to:
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