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Author Topic:   Changes at EvC Forum
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2301
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 151 of 191 (451917)
01-29-2008 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by molbiogirl
01-28-2008 10:47 PM


Re: Indisensable liberties aren't for sale
Molbiogirl writes:

brenna, Ringo, Omni, Dan, jar -- am I forgetting anyone?

I'm afraid so. Iceage, NWR, Berberry and the new guy, Faust. Sidelined volunteered for extinction. NJ and Purple Dawn are both inactive, of their own volition. I'm not saying that all these people are blameless, just that their suspensions seem over the top and the resignations seem avoidable.
It seems clear to me that most members have no problem with Percy's decision about moderation. Many support it. No-one has insurmountable objections to the new moderation regime. I have no such objections, having always regarded the moderation here as fair. If Percy wants to re-organise it, it is not my place to criticise.
What does concern people is the purge of members, with no explanation given in the suspensions thread. At the moment, the bad atmosphere surrounding this issue is standing in the way of the harmonious forum that we all want. Providing an explanation of exactly why people have been suspended, in the appropriate thread, as per normal practice might be a good start in dispelling the bad blood.


Mutate and Survive
This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by molbiogirl, posted 01-28-2008 10:47 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by nator, posted 01-29-2008 5:56 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1037 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 152 of 191 (451934)
01-29-2008 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Admin
01-25-2008 9:38 AM


Re: As We Move Forward
Oh, swell. The second meltdown in a year.

This is so interesting. Not.

But EvC Forum is not real life, it's just a discussion board

Have one moderator or 100. Regardless: a forum is in trouble when its owner doesn't know that discussions are real life.

Discussions don't happen by themselves, Percy. People have them.

Which means if you want a good discussion, you want people. It's nonsense to keep saying how much the first matters to you while talking about the second as a disposable nuisance.

A group of human beings is a complex system. Like any complex system, it resists linear control.

Yes, it's your party. But the only reason to throw a party is because you like what the guests bring--the surprises, the perspectives, the personalities, the ebb and flow of the conversation. If you don't like that, if you aren't willing to let your guests come in the door and bring themselves along, you don't need to play host. Parties aren't your thing.

If it's scripted action you want, linear control, you don't need a group of human beings. You need solitude and a set of action figures.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Admin, posted 01-25-2008 9:38 AM Admin has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 191 (451969)
01-29-2008 10:56 AM


Business As Usual?
It appears that a number of old timers want business as usual. The problem is that business as usual has been running the site down.

Unfortunately change involves members, some of who have been our friends. It appears that Admin is eliminating some who he regards as reluctant to change.

Imo the threads have been dominated by a clique of a relatively small community of likeminded folks who have tended to corner the agenda exclusively to their thinking. Creationists and even secularist folks who venture in become quickly overwhelmed with the barrage of unfriendly responses to their alternative views.

Of course the buck stops with Admin who has allowed this to happen and perhaps been at times part and parcel of the elite exclusive clique.

Perhaps Admin is determined to to correct this which becomes tacky, unpleasant and difficult. There is no easy fix. Imo those who see the need for change and are willing to conform to the change that the owner has determined to implement will ultimately find the site to improve and become a better experience for all.

Once revision has become established will perhaps be the time for determination by Admin as to whether any old members return who want to or whether participating members including reinstated ones remain.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Brian, posted 01-29-2008 11:40 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 158 by nator, posted 01-29-2008 5:59 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 154 of 191 (451994)
01-29-2008 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Buzsaw
01-29-2008 10:56 AM


Re: Business As Usual?
Imo those who see the need for change and are willing to conform to the change that the owner has determined to implement will ultimately find the site to improve and become a better experience for all.

The problem though is not that they need to change, it is what they are being asked to change to. They are being asked to specifically change into Percy's way of thinking or have their membership terminated.

Don't forget that most of the members that have been bumped by Percy or have volunteered to be removed, have contributed a great amount of time and effort into this website. We are talking probably over 100 000 posts, or pretty near that figure, so they were seriously committed to the site. These people made this site what it is today, and it will rapidly go downhill from here, which is sad. it will end up like Terry's hall of morons, all who disagree with Terry are removed.

Once revision has become established will perhaps be the time for determination by Admin as to whether any old members return who want to or whether participating members including reinstated ones remain.

I can garauntee you that those members who resigned on principle will tell percy where to stick his site if asked back! :)

The problem Buz is that people who act on principle tend to keep to their action.

Why would any of the members who resigned contemplate returning?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2008 10:56 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2008 12:02 PM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 156 by Wounded King, posted 01-29-2008 12:06 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 191 (452010)
01-29-2008 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Brian
01-29-2008 11:40 AM


Re: Business As Usual?

Brian writes:

The problem though is not that they need to change, it is what they are being asked to change to. They are being asked to specifically change into Percy's way of thinking or have their membership terminated.

Don't forget that most of the members that have been bumped by Percy or have volunteered to be removed, have contributed a great amount of time and effort into this website. We are talking probably over 100 000 posts, or pretty near that figure, so they were seriously committed to the site. These people made this site what it is today, and it will rapidly go downhill from here, which is sad. it will end up like Terry's hall of morons, all who disagree with Terry are removed.

Hi Brian. You make my points:

1. Admin asks nobody to change their thinking/POV. He requires change in the MO of some relative to board revisions as he, the owner, deems necessary.

2. As I've stated, perhaps the overwhelming participation of a few members who have little else to do is a major factor to the problem as the threads get filled with so much from so few, much of which carries little substance or edification, often tending towards antagonism against the minority POV and newbies.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Brian, posted 01-29-2008 11:40 AM Brian has not yet responded

Wounded King
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 156 of 191 (452011)
01-29-2008 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Brian
01-29-2008 11:40 AM


Re: Business As Usual?
I can garauntee you that those members who resigned on principle will tell percy where to stick his site if asked back!

The problem Buz is that people who act on principle tend to keep to their action.

Come on Brian we've had people make exactly the same sort of declarations before, and then come waltzing back in.

TTFN,

WK

Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Brian, posted 01-29-2008 11:40 AM Brian has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 157 of 191 (452201)
01-29-2008 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Granny Magda
01-29-2008 7:43 AM


Re: Indisensable liberties aren't for sale
quote:
Providing an explanation of exactly why people have been suspended, in the appropriate thread, as per normal practice might be a good start in dispelling the bad blood.

Percy has already "explained" in Message #18 of this thread:

I'm only issuing indefinite suspensions to members who specifically request it, or who indicate by the nature of a reply that they would be a divisive presence in moving forward. In some circumstances I weighed past history.

In other words, Percy didn't like the criticism he got from some of these people so gave them the boot.

Of course, Brenna didn't criticise but instead offered sympathy and help and got booted, so I guess Percy just doesn't like her or something.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Granny Magda, posted 01-29-2008 7:43 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 158 of 191 (452202)
01-29-2008 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Buzsaw
01-29-2008 10:56 AM


Re: Business As Usual?
quote:
It appears that a number of old timers want business as usual. The problem is that business as usual has been running the site down.
Unfortunately change involves members, some of who have been our friends. It appears that Admin is eliminating some who he regards as reluctant to change.

It doesn't look that way to me.

It looks to me like Percy killed off the people who he had clashed with in the past, and therefore doesn't like to have to deal with, and when criticized for it, he gave some of those people the boot, too.

I still don't have any idea why Brenna was cleansed from the site.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2008 10:56 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by arachnophilia, posted 01-30-2008 3:51 AM nator has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 159 of 191 (452339)
01-30-2008 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by nator
01-29-2008 5:59 PM


Re: Business As Usual?
I still don't have any idea why Brenna was cleansed from the site.

it's possible that he took her concern for being patronizing. or, maybe he just decided he didn't like her because she got cranky one time too many, or neglected to use proper capitalization or something. i dunno. it'd be nice if we could at least get some reasoning out of percy that made a little bit of sense.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by nator, posted 01-29-2008 5:59 PM nator has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 191 (455424)
02-12-2008 11:51 AM


Assessment Of The Revisions At EvC
1. It appears to me that the Admins are doing a remarkable and efficient job of managing the board with considerably less antagonistic energy spent on moderating issues, leaving more time for all to debate and read the substantive edifying topic issues.

2. We are seeing fewer red hot fast track threads which often turn into lengthy one on one emotional substanceless exchanges resulting in quick thread endings having accomplished little in resolving topic issues. The threads have slowed down to a pace where more have time to get in and participate, especially for members who have jobs and businesses needing time to get in on thread topics before they end.

3. Meanspirited engagements have diminished. (Note that I did not say spirited/lively engagements.)

4. New members are logging in, many of whom will hopefully contribute positively to the board at large with fresh ensight into old issues.

These are some positive effects of the changes off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.

This is not to say we don't miss some of our departed members. It is just an observation that being EvC was going in the wrong direction change was needed. I'm sure change is not something pleasant when it involves people for the owner, but regardless of mistakes which may have been made, what is best for board at large relative to it's survival and improvement is moving forward. :cool:

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 11:20 AM Buzsaw has responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 487 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 161 of 191 (455485)
02-12-2008 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by molbiogirl
01-28-2008 10:47 PM


Re: Indisensable liberties aren't for sale
Perhaps if brenna, Ringo, Omni, Dan, jar -- am I forgetting anyone? -- apologize to Percy, they too will have their privileges restored.

As far as I am aware, Jar made no public comments against Percy. Your comment above wrongly assumes that he did.

I kinda miss Jar; not only was he very knowledgeable in evolutionary theory, he had an equal amount of knowldege in archaeology, ancient history and the Bible even though we never agreed on anything. Most evolutionists, unlike Jar, have no knowledge outside of evolutionary theory.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by molbiogirl, posted 01-28-2008 10:47 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 162 of 191 (455672)
02-13-2008 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Buzsaw
02-12-2008 11:51 AM


Re: Assessment Of The Revisions At EvC
I see that the new people posting are pretty much Creationist trolls.

I also see that the number of members here at any given time is about half of what used to be here, and that almost nobody is ever in chat.

Yeah. This place is so much improved now that those who openly criticized Percy are gone.

Face it, it is stagnating.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Buzsaw, posted 02-12-2008 11:51 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Buzsaw, posted 02-13-2008 1:45 PM nator has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 191 (455711)
02-13-2008 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by nator
02-13-2008 11:20 AM


Partisan Pandering
nator writes:

I see that the new people posting are pretty much Creationist trolls.

Perhaps there are times when some creationists consider your input as trollish as well. Lumping all into the troll barrel is posting opportunist pedant POV partisan pandering.

Edited by Buzsaw, : update title


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 11:20 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 3:56 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 164 of 191 (455721)
02-13-2008 2:30 PM


The Internet is a Big Place
To those very unhappy with the recent changes I can only say that the Internet is a very big place and you should have no trouble finding venues more to your liking, but this website's purpose is not to play host to people who continually make their feelings known that they don't like it here or that they feel a significant injustice has been committed. Please vote with your feet.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 4:00 PM Admin has not yet responded
 Message 167 by Trixie, posted 02-13-2008 5:03 PM Admin has not yet responded
 Message 168 by teen4christ, posted 02-13-2008 5:18 PM Admin has not yet responded
 Message 176 by arachnophilia, posted 02-15-2008 3:18 PM Admin has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 165 of 191 (455744)
02-13-2008 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Buzsaw
02-13-2008 1:45 PM


Re: Partisan Pandering
quote:
Perhaps there are times when some creationists consider your input as trollish as well.

Examples, please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Buzsaw, posted 02-13-2008 1:45 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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