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Author Topic:   Changes at EvC Forum
nator
Member (Idle past 1994 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 166 of 191 (455747)
02-13-2008 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Admin
02-13-2008 2:30 PM


Re: The Internet is a Big Place
Wow, you'd choose Randman, whatever, and Heinrik/Dameeva/paula rose over someone who has been a part of this place since before it was in this place because they criticized some of your actions.

So sad to know that you value those years of contribution so little.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Admin, posted 02-13-2008 2:30 PM Admin has not yet responded

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1057 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 167 of 191 (455755)
02-13-2008 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Admin
02-13-2008 2:30 PM


Goodbye Percy
I'm sorry Percy, but this is just one step too far. There is obviously no room on this site for people who care about the quality of the debate.

I'll fall on my sword now, rather than get booted like all the others. I'm very sad to leave this board, it was one of the best on the internet, but no longer.

You invited us into your front room to debate Evolution versus Creation and we came in and did our best. Sadly the rules that apply to some of us are now so much higher that it is like debating on the north face of the Eiger.

I didn't leave earlier because jar persuaded me to give the forum another chance - yes, jar, the one you so unceremoniously booted around the time you booted nwr for no reason that I could see. And shame on you for what you did to brenna. Still, at least Faith was in agreement with you over that one.

I was in Chat when nator's suspension came through and I can't believe you were foolish enough to do that. Yes, it's your site, yes, you invited us in, but a debate forum needs more than a host - it needs posters who are interested in debate.

So with that, I'm off. I do wish you and the site all the best, but I no longer feel wanted, neither do I feel I can speak freely without fear of censorship.

Edited by Trixie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Admin, posted 02-13-2008 2:30 PM Admin has not yet responded

teen4christ
Member (Idle past 3150 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 168 of 191 (455761)
02-13-2008 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Admin
02-13-2008 2:30 PM


Please bring our recent departed back
I showed up right about the time people started getting booted out. I hardly had the time to get to know them. Could you please unban them? While I don't have the time to get on here very much, I do very much enjoy reading their posts while I'm on here. If you unban them, I'm sure in time people will stop voicing their dissatisfaction.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Admin, posted 02-13-2008 2:30 PM Admin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by TheWay, posted 02-13-2008 5:49 PM teen4christ has not yet responded
 Message 171 by Buzsaw, posted 02-13-2008 7:02 PM teen4christ has not yet responded
 Message 172 by RAZD, posted 02-13-2008 8:21 PM teen4christ has not yet responded

TheWay
Junior Member (Idle past 3196 days)
Posts: 27
From: Oklahoma City, Ok
Joined: 08-21-2007


Message 169 of 191 (455769)
02-13-2008 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by teen4christ
02-13-2008 5:18 PM


Re: Please bring our recent departed back
no, no, poor teen4christ, if they remained you would be teen4darwin.

They were impossible, and I for one am VERY happy they are gone.

Thank You EVC.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by teen4christ, posted 02-13-2008 5:18 PM teen4christ has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by RAZD, posted 02-13-2008 8:27 PM TheWay has not yet responded

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 399 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 170 of 191 (455772)
02-13-2008 6:02 PM


Except for Jar, and those who have voluntarily quit (for whatever reason), those who have been booted or banned, as far as I can tell, their banishments have been explained by Admin; OR their banishments can be understood by persons who have paid attention to Admin's posts and the clues, if not outright announcements that these messages contain.

It's not an anti-Creationist thing and it certainly is not an anti-Evolutionist thing. In my opinion it is about the reputation of this board and the ability or inability of any member to fulfill its reason for being (as defined by Admin).

For example: Brenna had made this board a chat line or a one liner haven, simply a distracting poster.

Ray

Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.

Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.


  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 191 (455788)
02-13-2008 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by teen4christ
02-13-2008 5:18 PM


Re: Please bring our recent departed back
teenforChrist writes:

I showed up right about the time people started getting booted out. I hardly had the time to get to know them. Could you please unban them? While I don't have the time to get on here very much, I do very much enjoy reading their posts while I'm on here. If you unban them, I'm sure in time people will stop voicing their dissatisfaction.

Hi Teen. Admin has made it clear that the board is going through major revision. I'm sorry to see Nator and Trixie go, but folks who insist on undermining Admin's program poison the atmosphere by harping incessantly about the changes. There are other old timers, both creationists and evolutionists who are working to make the owner's program work.

Imo, members who are willing to conform to kind of board the owner is implementing will ultimately find it to be a more fair and balanced and pleasant site for all ideologies to get down to business and debate the EvC issues, a board where both creationists and evolutionists will feel welcome in to debate the topics.

We now have less censorship than ever before since I've been here with the lightly moderated Coffee Shop, Free for All and less moderating by fewer admins.

Admin's recent actions are not about censorship. The fuss is about his guests who've enjoyed his place so long that they think they own it demanding he do it their way or else. Percy is saying, "or else what," and I don't blame him.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by teen4christ, posted 02-13-2008 5:18 PM teen4christ has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 172 of 191 (455799)
02-13-2008 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by teen4christ
02-13-2008 5:18 PM


is change bad?
I showed up right about the time people started getting booted out. I hardly had the time to get to know them.

There are a lot of really old posts where I don't know the posters, and there are several solid posters that are so infrequent that their visits are relished when they do occur (Mammuthus for one)

The board is going through a transition. Either we live with that fact or we don't.

... I'm sure in time people will stop voicing their dissatisfaction.

Or satisfaction. Groups of people always have some that are upset by change.

While I don't have the time to get on here very much, I do very much enjoy reading their posts while I'm on here.

Perhaps one change is that it will be easier to come across good posts. Like many of yours for example.

What is the purpose of this board?
What is your purpose on this board?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by teen4christ, posted 02-13-2008 5:18 PM teen4christ has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 173 of 191 (455800)
02-13-2008 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by TheWay
02-13-2008 5:49 PM


smug?
and I for one am VERY happy they are gone.

And I have never been happy with the banning of any member.

They were impossible,

Was it the posters or the information that was impossible to deal with?

no, no, poor teen4christ, if they remained you would be teen4darwin.

Really?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by TheWay, posted 02-13-2008 5:49 PM TheWay has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12390
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 174 of 191 (455803)
02-13-2008 8:29 PM


Small Clarification
The strong sense of entitlement a number of people had and that some here still continue to exhibit is what was making change so difficult. I've never wavered from my goals for this site, and I've never been shy about expressing them, and I strongly disagree with anyone who believes EvC Forum was not getting substantially further and further away from these goals.

If there were mistakes it was in believing that the site could be run democratically, not in the sense of voting but in the sense of trying to allow everyone a voice. The more we gave people a voice through the many feedback threads and the many moderators the worse things became. We were turning into just another cacophonous and chaotic Internet discussion board. There are too many of those already.

This is a site which I pay for, maintain, monitor daily, moderate, keep the server running and up-to-date, and write all the code. Over all the years since 2001 the only thing at this site I can point to that I didn't do myself, other than the text of the messages, is the logo that was contributed by TrueCreation. A number of people did answer the occasional technical question for me, usually about Internet server issues, and for that I am thankful. I'm also thankful to all the moderators we've had who gave so freely of themselves and their time. And I'm thankful to those knowledgeable members among us who have contributed so much to other's understanding, and to everyone who has made discussion here a positive experience. I would not try to diminish these many contributions in any way, but given my own contributions I don't think it should come as any surprise that I had been feeling much like the little red hen for quite some time.

So those who would like to be permanently suspended, it really isn't necessary to harp incessantly about how terrible things are here and/or what horrible things I have done or am doing and/or in some other way vilify me. Please just post your request for permanent suspension here.

But those who would like to discuss creation/evolution in a moderated environment that attempts to encourage constructive discussion, please carry on. If you become concerned about any members or posts please post a message to the Windsor castle thread, but keep in mind it isn't a discussion thread.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Creationista, posted 02-15-2008 2:31 PM Admin has not yet responded

  
Creationista
Inactive Junior Member


Message 175 of 191 (456110)
02-15-2008 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Admin
02-13-2008 8:29 PM


Re: Small Clarification
It seems to me that the problem is not entitlement, really, or at least not on the part of posters. You can either host a forum for discussion and enlightenment, or you can be the god of an internet sandbox. I don't think this is the community for me. You're going to be left with the kind of people who like imposed authority and sandbox gods.

I'm inactivating my account. Feel free to enforce it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Admin, posted 02-13-2008 8:29 PM Admin has not yet responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 176 of 191 (456121)
02-15-2008 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Admin
02-13-2008 2:30 PM


Re: The Internet is a Big Place
EvC used to be a big place too.

To those very unhappy with the recent changes I can only say that the Internet is a very big place and you should have no trouble finding venues more to your liking, but this website's purpose is not to play host to people who continually make their feelings known that they don't like it here or that they feel a significant injustice has been committed. Please vote with your feet.

perhaps those that are making their feelings known are doing so not because they don't like here, but because they do. i'm not saying anything about injustice -- it's your site, do whatever you want with it. we're not entitled to anything.

what i'm more concerned about is the foot-voting, forced and otherwise. the major reason this board has been so successful is the community of members here. the board cannot function without its people. maybe there will be a constant influx of new members, but we have already lost a lot with the loss of our older members. and if the people who speak up against moderation they feel is unfair all "vote with their feet" you will not be left with any people who are interested in promoting the spirit of fair debate. you can't have one without the other, because one is the other.

Edited by arachnophilia, : clarity

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Admin, posted 02-13-2008 2:30 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Admin, posted 02-15-2008 3:44 PM arachnophilia has responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12390
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 177 of 191 (456128)
02-15-2008 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by arachnophilia
02-15-2008 3:18 PM


Re: The Internet is a Big Place
Everyone is raising good points, but I have just reached my limit, and I'm no longer emotionally able to continue carrying the majority of the load while getting abused for it.

Hopefully the history of this thread shows that I don't mind constructive discussion, but I will no longer endure me or my site getting trashed. Schraf's Message 166 (in effect stating that I prefer people Randman and Paula Rose over serious contributors) and Trixie's Message 167 (in effect stating that I don't care about quality discussion) are examples of just the kind of ad hominem I'm not going to tolerate anymore, because defense is an endless task, ignorement wasn't causing any diminishment, and addressment just lends them legitimacy. People can go to other sites if they wish to trash me or EvC Forum, but we won't be doing that here anymore.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by arachnophilia, posted 02-15-2008 3:18 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Granny Magda, posted 02-15-2008 7:04 PM Admin has not yet responded
 Message 183 by arachnophilia, posted 02-16-2008 12:47 AM Admin has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 191 (456134)
02-15-2008 4:49 PM


Move Forward
Admin writes:

I'm no longer emotionally able to continue carrying the majority of the load while getting abused for it.

Take courage. You've implemented the improvements which should attract good people on both sides of the debates.

Transitions are usually not pleasant or easy. This is no exception. You have a good base of membership to build upon (abe: from both creationists and evolutionists). If the inactive members like what you and your members build they'll come around along with some good new participants. The www is potentially multiplea of millions, some of who will find EvC and like it.

You're right in that disgruntled members, regardless of ideology will discourage progress. You've been quite patient with most.
Stay the course and make it work.

GO EVC! :cool:

Edited by Buzsaw, : as indicated

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Rahvin, posted 02-15-2008 5:39 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 191 (456138)
02-15-2008 5:20 PM


Been There Buz
Perhaps I should remind those suspended indefinitely that I speak on behalf of Admin/Percy as one who's been permanently banned not once, but twice. Since then I've been a moderator and here I am supportive of Admin.

My point? Buz's not here as Mr Goodytwoshoes in the eyes of Admin. Admin and Buz have rarely agreed on anything. Buz's still here because Admin's heart is not of (abe: stone). Buz's still here because Admin is ever aiming for improvement and is doing whatever it takes to effect it.

I have no doubt whatsoever that nobody will miss old members more than Percy with emotional stress but he's doing what he see needful for the good of the site at large.

Edited by Buzsaw, : Improve wording


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by arachnophilia, posted 02-16-2008 12:51 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Rahvin
Member (Idle past 538 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 180 of 191 (456143)
02-15-2008 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Buzsaw
02-15-2008 4:49 PM


Re: Move Forward
For once I agree with Buzsaw. Mark it on your calendar, surely this portends great catastrophies in the near future.

I don't know about everybody else, but I'm sticking around as long as EvC remains a place to argue about evolution, creationism, and surrounding issues in a mildly moderated environment.

Let's be honest here, guys - Percy is doing his best to keep this site attractive to both creationists and evolutionists, and that's quite a feat. Most Christian sites immediately ban posters who contradict the site owner's specific interpretation of the Bible, or delete posts, or other such underhanded techniquest to ensure they continue to preach to the choir. Most Atheist sites pile on the few creationists who show up to such a degree that they are discouraged from ever posting again, and that's assuming they aren't banned for trying to use faith as evidence.

Here at EvC Percy has been trying his hardest to walk the line where both sides will continue to post, which maintaining honest debate where claims are expected to be supported. I think he's forced to give leeway here and there (and often to a few posters) in order to keep people coming back (because some positions can't be supported with science, and some posters can be inflammatory - I'm sure I fall into that last category sometimes).

I certainly miss the members who are gone, but I'm not even going to comment on whether I agree or disagree with Percy on the bannings - it's irrelevant. He's doing his best to keep the place resembling the way he originally intended, and this isn't a democracy. For those who choose to leave becasue they no longer find the debate experience here rewarding, it's been wonderful debating with you.

As for me, I still like arguing with the likes of ICANT, Buzsaw, Ichthus, and others. No matter how frustrating it can be sometimes, and even if I feel they've crossed a line that I wouldn't be allowed to cross, I frankly don't care. I'm here to argue, and I think the arguments and evidence speak for themselves even if the person I'm specifically debating isn't swayed. So I'm going to stick around - Percy's site is intellectually stimulating, and I actually learn things here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Buzsaw, posted 02-15-2008 4:49 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

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