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Author Topic:   Buzsaw Permanently Suspended
Admin
Director
Posts: 12993
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1 of 83 (195446)
03-30-2005 1:10 PM


It is with a heavy heart that I have permantly suspended Buzsaw's posting privileges. I apologize to those in the middle of discussions that now can never be completed.
If anyone feels the need to comment on the suspension or to say anything about Buzsaw let it be in this thread. But let us be upbeat and positive by focusing on the important contributions he has made by forcing us to justify and explain our positions.
May God bless you and keep you, Buzsaw.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by CK, posted 03-30-2005 1:13 PM Admin has replied
 Message 3 by Jazzns, posted 03-30-2005 1:14 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 03-30-2005 2:11 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 8 by Monk, posted 03-30-2005 2:29 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 10 by Parasomnium, posted 03-30-2005 2:55 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 26 by joshua221, posted 03-30-2005 8:24 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 33 by Firebird, posted 03-30-2005 11:13 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 55 by Dr Jack, posted 03-31-2005 9:27 AM Admin has not replied
 Message 80 by Trae, posted 04-03-2005 5:05 AM Admin has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4118 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 2 of 83 (195450)
03-30-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Admin
03-30-2005 1:10 PM


Can I ask why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Admin, posted 03-30-2005 1:10 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Admin, posted 03-30-2005 2:38 PM CK has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3901 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 3 of 83 (195451)
03-30-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Admin
03-30-2005 1:10 PM


Where and Why?
I haven't been following any threads he has been participating in. What was the final straw and in what thread?

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Admin, posted 03-30-2005 1:10 PM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by MrHambre, posted 03-30-2005 1:29 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1383 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 4 of 83 (195457)
03-30-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jazzns
03-30-2005 1:14 PM


This is probably the one that broke the camel's back. Oh well.
regards,
Esteban hambre
This message has been edited by MrHambre, 03-30-2005 01:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jazzns, posted 03-30-2005 1:14 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by kjsimons, posted 03-30-2005 1:39 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 83 (195459)
03-30-2005 1:31 PM


What's wrong with that post?
I can understand if he thinks people are ganging up on him, even if they don't mean to do it.
I guess any paranoia he had is amplified by his being suspended.

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 6 of 83 (195461)
03-30-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by MrHambre
03-30-2005 1:29 PM


Actually, it looks to be this one:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by MrHambre, posted 03-30-2005 1:29 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4750
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 7 of 83 (195465)
03-30-2005 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Admin
03-30-2005 1:10 PM


Huh?
Am I guessing it's for his own sake?
I read the two links in this thread. Apparently people were attacking Buz. But a permanent ban? I hope you can explain for us all Admin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Admin, posted 03-30-2005 1:10 PM Admin has not replied

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 8 of 83 (195469)
03-30-2005 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Admin
03-30-2005 1:10 PM


"permanent" seems a bit harsh. Was this action preceeded by temporary suspensions or banishment to boot camp?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Admin, posted 03-30-2005 1:10 PM Admin has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12993
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 9 of 83 (195473)
03-30-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by CK
03-30-2005 1:13 PM


Charles Knight writes:
Can I ask why?
The post that convinced me Buzsaw is irretrievably irremediable was Message 96. I had been hoping that Buzz's last flirtation with suspension a month or so ago had moderated his behavior, but in this post he says he has the right to express his view of things without ever having to engage the numerous rebuttals. The numerous cautions about nonsense discussions, his Humptey-Dumpteyish style of redefing his meaning after the fact, the increasingly unconstructive attitude, finally brought his longstanding brinksmanship to a conclusion.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by CK, posted 03-30-2005 1:13 PM CK has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 10 of 83 (195478)
03-30-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Admin
03-30-2005 1:10 PM


This was not my intention.
It may seem very strange, coming from me, but could I enter a plea on behalf of Buzsaw? This permanent suspension isn't at all what I expected.
I know I have been one of Buz's worst 'meanspirited counterparts' lately, perhaps even the one who he hates most at this moment, but after reading the last few of his posts, it has finally dawned on me why Buzsaw thinks evolution is a random-only process. It all hinges on a misunderstanding on his part, that I think can be remedied if we discuss it with him in a patient and courteous manner.
I hereby retract my accusation of dishonesty and offer Buzsaw my sincere apologies for being such an obnoxious fool. If I promise I will behave in the future and if Buzsaw is willing to engage in honourable debate with all of us, is there a small chance then that he could be reinstated as a full member of this debating club?
Please?
"Avoid the base hypocrisy of condemning in one man what you pass over in silence when committed by another." - Theodore Roosevelt, Cambridge, Massachusetts, March 11, 1890.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Admin, posted 03-30-2005 1:10 PM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-30-2005 3:06 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 83 (195485)
03-30-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Parasomnium
03-30-2005 2:55 PM


Re: This was not my intention.
I think can be remedied if we discuss it with him in a patient and courteous manner.
Please don't say things like that while I'm drinking soda. My monitor's a mess now.
Edit to elaborate, in the spirit of me not just being a smarmy ass about this:
Buz has received patient, courteous discussion for, quite literally, years now. He's also gotten furious-megaphone treatment, and fierce-yet-respectful debate, and any other means you can think of to attempt to get him to retain a piece or two of information.
It hasn't worked. He's been given more than the benefit of the doubt, to no effect.
So now he actually comes out and says he plans to just go ahead and repeat his beliefs without engaging in debate on the subject? More power to him. Angelfire or geocities will happily provide him with a free outlet where he can preach all the live long day, and he'll never, ever have to worry about anyone responding to him in any way. Meanwhile, maybe things can be a little smoother for those who actually want to discuss a subject, here on this discussion board.
I think it's a shame he's gone, because more often than not he did have a point buried under all the nonsense. But ultimately, he wasn't willing to bring that point out, and just engage it honestly.
I know we're only supposed to be sharing fond memories of Buz on this thread, and I'm really not looking to rub it in and dance around singing, "Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead" here. So if this post was inappropriate, I apologize. Just felt I'd make clear that yeah, someone other than an admin agrees with the decision.
This message has been edited by [Dan's Clever Alias], 03-30-2005 03:22 PM

"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Parasomnium, posted 03-30-2005 2:55 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Parasomnium, posted 03-30-2005 3:45 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 12 of 83 (195500)
03-30-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dan Carroll
03-30-2005 3:06 PM


Re: This was not my intention.
Thanks for the explanation, Dan. I didn't feel like reacting to the bare joke, although it brought a smile on my face.
I guess I feel a bit responsible for Buz's suspension. (No Dan, not the shock absorbers.)
But seriously, if we can have Brad, then why can't we have Buz? I know, the comparison is a bit lame, but nobody puts a gun to our heads and makes us talk to either. We do so, because we want to. Or we don't because we don't.
But now, we don't have that choice anymore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-30-2005 3:06 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Ben!, posted 03-30-2005 4:06 PM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 17 by Brad McFall, posted 03-30-2005 4:28 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 13 of 83 (195507)
03-30-2005 3:58 PM


Buzsaw will be missed!
I thought Buzsaw's greatest value was in forcing us to explain things in great detail. His questions often made apparent that not all, or even most, of the supposed science contributors understood the issue properly, and that some even had contradictory understandings. An example: when I told Buzsaw the universe was finite, Sylas corrected me. We don't know if it's finite or infinite. It is only the visible universe that is finite. How much more universe is out there we have no way of knowing at this time.
Buzsaw also made us question our assumptions by making us explain and justify even the most basic points. He forced us to ask ourselves, "Do I really know this at a fundamental level based upon real evidence, or is it just something I accept because it makes sense to me?"
We'll have to work harder to keep each other honest now.
--Percy

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1388 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 14 of 83 (195508)
03-30-2005 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Parasomnium
03-30-2005 3:45 PM


Re: This was not my intention.
Parasomnium,
Not to defend Brad, but:
- Brad uses the scientific method and scientific results much more successfully than buzsaw
- Brad consistently responds to criticism
Reading Buz's responses to Sylas in some of the cosmology threads, it seemed that even when he was responding to criticism of his point, his ultimate conclusion (days later) was to stick with his "gut" and reject the evidence in front of him.
I enjoyed reading Buz for a while, but I started skipping him as "clutter." Reading Brad is a challenge, but his posts are definitely not clutter. Especially in the past 6 months or so (in my experience), his posts have been hard to read because the guy is knowledgeable and because he's always trying to develop his own ideas, not because he avoids any forum guidelines.
I'm sad to see Buz go, because I'm sad that things got to this point. I was sad to see things get so personal. But that just tells me that the Admin action was probably the right thing to do. Too many people had tried and failed; after that, what's left but a feeling of hopelessness and emotional replies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Parasomnium, posted 03-30-2005 3:45 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Parasomnium, posted 03-30-2005 4:25 PM Ben! has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4750
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 15 of 83 (195512)
03-30-2005 4:22 PM


Well, I can't read the whole thread now(the linked one), but firstly I think Parasomnium has shown great character in this topic.
Here's what Buz said;
Buz writes:
it is totally meanspirited and obnoxious forum behavior for my counterparts to call me on being dishonest and in violation of rules when I refer to the whole process as random
Now it appears that people were calling Buz dishonest and such.
I myself have called evolution random, and chance naturalism etc.. We say this because we refer to the CHOICE-based definition of "selection" involving a mind. You have to remember that evolution=no God from Buzsaw's perspective. Sheesh, terminology. That can't be what he was hanged for surely.
Buz writes:
This's the way I see it and I should not be denied that right to express what I believe as I believe it
Here Buz simply asserts his right to express it as he wants it. Big deal, we all do that.
Percy, you said;
Percy writes:
but in this post he says he has the right to express his view of things without ever having to engage the numerous rebuttals
I didn't read that personally. I just read that he wasn't altering his terminology.
Percy and Dan, really - your bad on this one, this seems like the same old "Buz won't change" routine. I personally think you just don't understand him.
In life, if you don't like the way someone debates or talks, yet he isn't doing anything particularly wrong then you don't cut his tongue off do you?
My worry Percy, is that you're simply banishing Buz for being Buz, but will there be an investigation into what Buz has said above in this quote? What about his words about people attacking HIM?
Percy, I have to plead with you to let Buz back, and put him in bootcamp where you and him can talk about this respectfully with eachother. I just can't see the justification of permanent banishment on the face of this. Should you silence him for no wrong-doing? Is he going to be sacrificed as the scapegoat of evo-frustrations?

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 03-30-2005 4:33 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 19 by Parasomnium, posted 03-30-2005 4:36 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 21 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-30-2005 4:44 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
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