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Author Topic:   Whatever gets to take a break (suspension)
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 16 of 41 (81343)
01-28-2004 12:53 PM


Bump
I would still like to see more feedback from the various people. I think we need a fairly unified plan in place, before Whatever returns to active poster status.
On a related note pertaining to topic quality control, I point out this message, found elsewhere.
Adminnemooseus

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mark24, posted 01-28-2004 1:14 PM Adminnemooseus has replied
 Message 18 by NosyNed, posted 01-28-2004 1:15 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 17 of 41 (81345)
01-28-2004 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Adminnemooseus
01-28-2004 12:53 PM


Re: Bump
Moose,
I think Whatever should be allowed back in. I don't think he should've been banned outright in the first place. If the plan was to allow a cool off period then maybe the relevant threads should've been blocked for a day or so with a warning to Whatever.
He IS immensely irritating because he is such an inconsistent compartmentalised thinker, but I don't think he's a troll. He needs to assimilate what he says at any point into everything else he believes & check for inconsistensies. He also needs to read replies thouroughly before responding. I lost count of how many times I had to reiterate the same Cambrian-explosion-wasn't-affected-by-the-flood point before the penny finally dropped.
Mark

"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Adminnemooseus, posted 01-28-2004 12:53 PM Adminnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Adminnemooseus, posted 01-28-2004 1:39 PM mark24 has not replied
 Message 20 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-28-2004 2:12 PM mark24 has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 18 of 41 (81346)
01-28-2004 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Adminnemooseus
01-28-2004 12:53 PM


Help
I think we could try to help someone who seems to not understand how badly they are doing as far as real debating goes.
Taking some sample exchanges and pointing out what is wrong and what could have been done better is the kind of thing I am thinking of.
However, I don't think that whatever is worth this effort. I don't think he can or wants to learn a thing. If we had a statement from him belying that I might consider trying to help.
It certainly seems he doesn't understand what he is doing wrong. Some suggest what he is doing is deliberate.

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Adminnemooseus, posted 01-28-2004 12:53 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 19 of 41 (81348)
01-28-2004 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mark24
01-28-2004 1:14 PM


Re: Bump
quote:
I think Whatever should be allowed back in. I don't think he should've been banned outright in the first place. If the plan was to allow a cool off period then maybe the relevant threads should've been blocked for a day or so with a warning to Whatever.
By "blocking of relevant threads", I asume you me by means of a bunch of admin guidance messages. I think these would have just gotten lost in the pile and/or flat out ignored. A more extreme blocking, would be to have temporarily closed a bunch of topics. That sure seems to be very overkill. I think the only practical way to cool Whatever's jets, was the suspension.
quote:
He also needs to read replies thouroughly before responding. I lost count of how many times I had to reiterate the same Cambrian-explosion-wasn't-affected-by-the-flood point before the penny finally dropped.
I think part of the problem is that the situation(s) were set up, that Whatever received many (redundant?) poundings from many sources. Even if s/he were receptive to enlightenment, these pounding very well might be more inclined to cause numbness.
If and when Whatever returns, I think the opposing side needs to show much restraint, to avoid the "great pilling on".
One aspect of the Whatever nature that I note, from the Argon discussions, is that s/he works that grey area between total giberish and coherence. There is enough partial continuity in the statements, that they can't be written off as total babble.
I expect that I'll lift the suspension at about midnight tonight.
Further feedback still welcome and encouraged,
Adminnemooseus

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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by PaulK, posted 01-28-2004 5:45 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 20 of 41 (81354)
01-28-2004 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mark24
01-28-2004 1:14 PM


Cambrian explosion side note (off topic???)
quote:
I lost count of how many times I had to reiterate the same Cambrian-explosion-wasn't-affected-by-the-flood point before the penny finally dropped.
I didn't follow that debate very closely, but I must plead confusion myself, on how a "Cambrian-explosion-wasn't-affected-by-the-flood" arguement can even happen, being that the mainstream science accepted gologic column totally excludes the flood. But this really should be carried on at the original topic, not here (bad Moose for even bringing it up).
Minnemooseus (non-admin mode)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mark24, posted 01-28-2004 1:14 PM mark24 has replied

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 21 of 41 (81359)
01-28-2004 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Minnemooseus
01-28-2004 2:12 PM


Re: Cambrian explosion side note (off topic???)
Moose,
A quick explanation & then we'll drop it. Whatever claimed that the fossil record was formed by fossils sinking & rising to their natural positions in a liquified sediment (liquefaction) during the flood. But he claimed the Cambrian expplosion was an actual artifact, evidence of Genesis itself. But the only way it could be that is if liquefaction hadn't occurred. Meaning the Cambrian base & 5/6ths of the fossil record below it weren't the result of liquefaction or the flood, either. This created some pretty amusing problems. Pity it took so long to make him understand that the Cambrian fauna was unaffected by the flood at all, by his own argument.
Every post I would point it out, every post he would ignore it.
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-28-2004 2:12 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 22 of 41 (81384)
01-28-2004 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Adminnemooseus
01-28-2004 1:39 PM


Re: Bump
Didn't he essentially admit to making up rubbish because he didn't know the answer to a question ?
That's not sensible nor is it at all productive - just a waste of time to all concerned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Adminnemooseus, posted 01-28-2004 1:39 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by JonF, posted 01-28-2004 5:58 PM PaulK has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 23 of 41 (81385)
01-28-2004 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by PaulK
01-28-2004 5:45 PM


Re: Bump
Didn't he essentially admit to making up rubbish because he didn't know the answer to a question ?
IMHO yes:
quote:
I'm not a scientists, but JonF wanted me to explain how the sediments dating methods are meaningless, so I winged him up a theory, to explain how meaningless the dating methods are, however, I'm not a scientists, so won't beable to prove argon is actually being pressed into the crystal matrix, however, Argon is a carrier gas, it might well slip into the crystal matrix, given the forces of capillary pressures, in light that you say argon has all its electron shells filled, etc...
I think that an email from an admin discouraging such behaviour is appropriate ... but I doubt it'll have an effect. I don't think whatever will change much in the near future. If he/she is posting on the board I think we'll have to modify our behaviour.

This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 24 of 41 (81418)
01-29-2004 12:13 AM


Whatever's suspension lifted
Lifting Whatever's suspension.
I encourage Whatever to read the previous postings of this topic, if not already done.
I encourage Whatever to show restraint in his postings. Likewise (probably even more), I encourage restraint by those directing postings towards Whatever. Let's not pile on.
Everyone, be nice to each other. Be nice to Whatever - I might just be giving him a little extra protection.
Adminnemooseus

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 25 of 41 (81877)
01-31-2004 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Adminnemooseus
01-29-2004 12:13 AM


Re: Whatever's suspension lifted
Suspension lifted; no change in behaviour at all.
Or am I missing something?

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Adminnemooseus, posted 01-29-2004 12:13 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Percy, posted 01-31-2004 9:16 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 26 of 41 (81888)
01-31-2004 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by NosyNed
01-31-2004 8:21 PM


Re: Whatever's suspension lifted
NosyNed writes:
Suspension lifted; no change in behaviour at all.
Or am I missing something?
I noticed the same thing.
I used to be a fairly active moderator, but I found it caused reduced participation by Creationists and no change in behavior among those that remained, even when I engaged them in dialogue about what I thought the problems were. It seems to require a certain mindset to think like a Creationist. You can ask for evidence until you're blue in the face, but almost all Creationists who have been here have no conception of objective evidence, and/or have no concept of cause and effect.
This element seems to run through even the most rational Creationists. Grace2u argues excellently and yet can't seem to see that her source of moral standards has no more objective reality than that of atheists, in fact perhaps less so. Wmscott understood the importance of evidence but had no ability to assess its validity or relevance. TrueCreation mastered the jargon of science without ever being able to think logically about any of it. In other words, even with the best Creationists you feel constantly like you're in some kind of wonderland where nothing makes any sense but strangely enough the inhabitants don't seem to notice. Even more incredibly, in the real world these supposedly irrational people are actually able to turn on a computer and use a mouse!
So I guess I'd have to say I'm not surprised that Whatever has returned no different from when he left. But Creationists have no monopoly on resistance to change. Evolutionists Budikka and SLPx are currently suspended for the same reason.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by NosyNed, posted 01-31-2004 8:21 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 27 of 41 (81923)
02-01-2004 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Percy
01-31-2004 9:16 PM


Re: Whatever's suspension lifted
I think that creationists are symptomatic of the general level of ignorance among the public at large that have little understanding of science but a full grasp of technology.You do not have to understand electromagnetism in order to turn on a light switch.
As much as I argue with these people on matters of science that I am able to understand it is obvious in a lot of my posts that I struggle with concepts myself.It would not be too far a throw for me to have ended up like them if it wasn't for the fact that I never could see any sense in the idea of believing in a being who exists everywhere and is never seen.Go figure.
I was reading a book by Michael Shermer I think where he points out that the resistance to change on the part of believers is that it constitutes a threat to the very things that allow them to cope with life.Highly educated people are even more resistant to change since they have a greater ability to form arguements of higher complexity to support their belief and therefore find it even harder to formulate an arguement to counter their carefully reasoned out ones.
I learned from my first wife {born again Christian} that in placing one set of arguements to her line of thinking to show its flaws she would alter the construction of her arguements to accomodate the new information.Every arguement is filtered through the belief system and not taken on its own merits.Any arguement can be made to fit their belief system since there is no clear consensus among any group so if one contradiction comes a calling they simply reinterpret to maintain the illusion.Hence the need for Christian apologetics.
The situation is not one in which I expect to change a person's belief since that is never my concern.I am simply concerned that this webpage stand here as a consistently available source for correcting misinformation.The more science that can be properly discussed [at all levels] the better peoples critical thinking skills will become regardless.If we could get levels of clarity as demonstrated by such believers as truthlover then I think we will make a difference.
Sides, which where else can I piss off so many Christians in one fell swoop.Later

'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 28 of 41 (83145)
02-04-2004 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by sidelined
02-01-2004 1:38 AM


Re: Whatever's suspension lifted
Has whatever improved at all? Or is it possible he is worse than ever? I'm thinking of recent behavior in the ark design thread.

Common sense isn't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by sidelined, posted 02-01-2004 1:38 AM sidelined has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 29 of 41 (147983)
10-07-2004 2:09 AM


Whatever suspended again
Also see Whatever suspended at the "Which religion's creation story should be taught".
Adminnemooseus

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to
Change in Moderation?
or
Thread Reopen Requests
or
Considerations of topic promotions from the Proposed New Topics forum

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 30 of 41 (147991)
10-07-2004 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by sidelined
02-01-2004 1:38 AM


Re: Whatever's suspension lifted
sidelined writes:
The more science that can be properly discussed [at all levels] the better peoples critical thinking skills will become regardless.
This is what I used to think. However, through some demonstrations by various people, whose names I'm not going to mention but should be obvious enough, I think there are other problems which prevent people from benefiting from scientific discussions.
Take 'whatever' for example. I must admit that he/she appears to be much more calm than me, and that suggests maturity. However, the contents of his/her posts are those of a child. I have yet to see any real coherent discussion carried out by anyone with 'whatever' simply because it's impossible to. Everytime a point has been made that comes in conflict with his views, it is simply brushed aside and ignored no matter what. One of the most notable and recent examples is the presidential debate thread, which Shraf tried to engage 'whatever' in a discussion but failed.
This is a clear case of everything-that-comes-in-one-ear-goes-out-the-other-ear.
I absolutely don't see how discussions about science can help people like 'whatever'. In order for it to have any usefulness, it must be picked up by 'whatever'. However, since there's really no indication that he's learning anything from past discussions, how can we expect him/her to learn anything from something as complex as the various scientific disciplines? He, and many others, are still struggling with something as simple as the scientific method.
Personally, I still don't know of anyway to get through to these people, although sometimes I admire them for being able to live in the dark like that.

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