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Author Topic:   A Question for EvC's Great Minds to answer:
berberry 
Suspended Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 1853
From: vicksburg, mississippi
Joined: 11-29-2003


Message 16 of 32 (200449)
04-19-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Loudmouth
04-19-2005 4:05 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
Loudmouth writes:

quote:
For your paper I might compare the current debate between creationism and evolution with the previous debate between geocentrism and heliocentrism. This debate happened many years ago between science (ie Galileo) and religion (ie The Inquisition). It has a lot of similarities with the debate between science and religion today.

I agree, and rather than just compare them I think the evc debate could be presented as simply one more iteration of the age-old religion vs. science debate. The issues of that debate change over time, but the essential question is always one of faith vs. evidence.


Keep America Safe AND Free!
This message is a reply to:
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Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 32 (200572)
04-19-2005 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nator
04-18-2005 10:11 AM


Re: World History student needs our input
it has to do with what we decide to teach as science
Exactly, there is your debate. I, a christian say GOD created. You say (I assume) that life, in general, evoloved. And so it goes. I say we should teach creationism and evolution with the same vigor and let the students study it for themselves and come to an educated conclusion. Anybody here have a problem with that. -Z
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Replies to this message:
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Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 32 (200574)
04-19-2005 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Lammy
04-18-2005 2:07 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
What I'm getting at is that the world, religious or not, is sinfull. And "worldly things" are aka sinfull things in general. That's what I'm getting at. I know the world has a religious majority, but it's still worldly. If not why would there be such a problem with catholic priests and young boys and girls? -Z
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 32 (200576)
04-19-2005 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
04-18-2005 3:50 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
Let me get this correct. You're saying that most churches believe what the bible doesn't teach. That God didn't create that He created so to evolve? And you are speaking for the vast majority of churches as was I so who exactly is correct? I for one have never heard any Pope or christian scholar say anything except the opposite of what you are implying. I guess everyone that went to theology classes and recieved there diplomas and doctorates are wrong.....I'll let them know. -Z
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jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 20 of 32 (200577)
04-19-2005 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Zachariah
04-19-2005 11:43 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
Yup.
This message is a reply to:
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Lammy
Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 3575
From: Chicago Suburbs
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 21 of 32 (200590)
04-20-2005 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Zachariah
04-19-2005 11:39 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
Zach writes:

What I'm getting at is that the world, religious or not, is sinfull. And "worldly things" are aka sinfull things in general. That's what I'm getting at. I know the world has a religious majority, but it's still worldly. If not why would there be such a problem with catholic priests and young boys and girls? -Z


The very concept of being "sinfull" is religious. You are talking as if you have authority over what is and isn't truth based on your own personal theological standpoint.

If you think we, as worldly beings, are such a bad thing, would you recommend we all point a gun to our heads and put ourselves out of our worldly misery so that we can become non-worldly beings?

To be honest, the more I read your posts, the more I think you are full of it. No offense.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Lammy
Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 3575
From: Chicago Suburbs
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 22 of 32 (200592)
04-20-2005 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Zachariah
04-19-2005 11:43 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
Zach writes:

I for one have never heard any Pope or christian scholar say anything except the opposite of what you are implying.

Not to start a battle of the links, but I'm tired of having to repeat myself 20 million times on a hundred things to people.

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02tc.htm

There is one example that you have never heard of. Yup, the world is a much bigger place than your house.


This message is a reply to:
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Lammy
Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 3575
From: Chicago Suburbs
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 23 of 32 (200593)
04-20-2005 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Zachariah
04-19-2005 11:36 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
Zach writes:

I say we should teach creationism and evolution with the same vigor and let the students study it for themselves and come to an educated conclusion.


Which creationism do we teach? There are thousands of creation myths out there. Oh wait, you mean we should teach the christian creation myth along with the scientific theory. Ok, I get it...
This message is a reply to:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 32 (200733)
04-20-2005 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Zachariah
04-19-2005 11:36 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
quote:
Exactly, there is your debate. I, a christian say GOD created. You say (I assume) that life, in general, evoloved. And so it goes. I say we should teach creationism and evolution with the same vigor and let the students study it for themselves and come to an educated conclusion. Anybody here have a problem with that. -Z

That is the discussion. Should religious views be part of a natural science? This is what led to the debate between the Church and Galileo. Galileo, using science, said that the earth orbited the sun. The Church, using scripture, said that the sun orbited the earth. Which should we teach, that science is wrong if it contradicts the bible or that our interpretation of the Bible is wrong if it contradicts science?


This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 25 of 32 (200882)
04-21-2005 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Zachariah
04-19-2005 11:36 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
Hi, Zach, how would it work making creationism/science compulsory in schools? Do Catholics insist on the New Jerusalem Bible. Protestants plump for the NASB, Jews won`t use anything but the JPS Bible, while atheists can select a Bible of choice?
This message is a reply to:
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Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 32 (202885)
04-27-2005 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Lammy
04-20-2005 12:41 AM


Re: World History student needs our input
no offense
none taken. I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about.
This message is a reply to:
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Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 32 (202886)
04-27-2005 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Nighttrain
04-21-2005 5:31 AM


Re: World History student needs our input
lol. Yeah, I guess it would be a free-for-all. BYOB. Bring your own bible. Nobody is going to let anyone come close to a school if a bible is in hand.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member
Posts: 1780
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 28 of 32 (202934)
04-27-2005 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Zachariah
04-27-2005 12:23 AM


Re: World History student needs our input
Actually Zack, there is nothing wrong with bringing a bible to school. Kids do it all the time and its perfectly legal. Anyone who finds this is NOT so should immediatly contact their local ACLU.


Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

select * from USERS where CLUE > 0

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com


This message is a reply to:
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mick
Member (Idle past 2398 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 29 of 32 (202999)
04-27-2005 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jenilicious
04-14-2005 9:14 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
Why are Creationism and Evolution such controversial topics in the U.S. today

Proximate causes:

1. ignorance. From what I know of the US education system, it is not very good until you get to graduate school. The US public appears to be very afraid of anything that challenges the "traditional" view of life, or the "american way". The war on drugs, war against communism, war against terror, war against evolution - these are all rooted in the fear of ignorant people of anything outside their narrow experience.

2. religion. People in the US are FAR more religious than in any other developed country. Many people are happy to reject any reasonable information and theories that challenge their precious religious doctrines. Many decision makers in the political system make a big show of their religious credentials and put religion directly into their policies. Elsewhere, this is is extremely rare. In Europe, for example, overtly religious political organizations are generally sidelined as microparties. Even a religious person like Tony Blair doesn't explicitly relate his policies to his religious beliefs, and the majority of the UK population would be appalled if he were to do so, because religion is seen as a private matter rather than a public matter. The US is exceptional in that religion is seen as a public virtue rather than a completely private matter that should be irrelevant to politics.

Ultimate cause:

1. anti-rationalism as a tool of social control. In the US, antirationalism has been made into a virtue. Look at the political opinions that tend to go along with anti-evolutionism. These people are often conservative, religious, poorly-educated people. This combination of characteristics makes a constituency that is ideal for manipulation by powerful vested interests such as the churches and the media. If you read "Manufacturing consent" by Herman and Chomsky you will see that rational free-thinking people are anathema to the rightwing political agenda that dominates in the US. The attacks on evolution through the media and with the support of the conservative right fit quite neatly into H&C's thesis. it's just another prong in the attack against rationality in the US.

This message has been edited by mick, 04-27-2005 12:32 PM


This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 30 of 32 (203519)
04-28-2005 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by mick
04-27-2005 12:24 PM


Re: World History student needs our input
Hi, Mick, even scarier is the attack of the conservative,religious, HIGHLY-educated, wealthy people who either openly or tacitly support the anti-rational agenda. Almost like a conspiracy--------
This message is a reply to:
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