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Author Topic:   Some help for the TC model
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 61 of 84 (9336)
05-07-2002 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by TrueCreation
05-07-2002 6:45 PM


You must be consistent with your units, that's all. You can use SI, but you don't have to (though the conversions get hairy). As long as everything is scaled properly and the answer is in the correct units, you'll be ok.
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by TrueCreation, posted 05-07-2002 6:45 PM TrueCreation has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Joe Meert, posted 05-09-2002 9:10 AM Joe Meert has not replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 62 of 84 (9421)
05-09-2002 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Joe Meert
05-07-2002 6:50 PM


C'mon TC. Let's work on a thorough discussion of your model?
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Joe Meert, posted 05-07-2002 6:50 PM Joe Meert has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by joz, posted 05-10-2002 12:00 PM Joe Meert has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 84 (9471)
05-10-2002 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Joe Meert
05-09-2002 9:10 AM


TC do the work or admit defeat...
I am getting tired (and I am sure Joe is as well) of your endless prevarication....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Joe Meert, posted 05-09-2002 9:10 AM Joe Meert has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by TrueCreation, posted 05-11-2002 7:21 PM joz has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 84 (9526)
05-11-2002 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by joz
05-10-2002 12:00 PM


"TC do the work or admit defeat..."
--I had thought I had already shown that this has evidently indicated my failure in this particular converstation, basically I'm in a hole untill I can dig myself out.
--Joe, here are my variable inputs for equation which I obtained after some research:
-->
Pm - Mantle Density - w - Density of water (assuming 4oC or pressure overcomes the variation due to temperature) = 1000 kg/m^3
Av - Coefficient of thermal expansion = 3*10-5 oK-1
Tm - Mantle Temperature (as if it were a plume, mantle upwelling) = 1573.15K - 1773.15K
T0 - Surface Temperature = 373.15K
K - Thermal diffusivity = 1 mm^2 s^(-1)
X - Distance from center = 3000(?) meters
V - Estimated Velocity = 1.5 m (linear)/year, 4.109589 mm/day, 0.1712328 mm/hour, 0.0028538812 mm/min, .0000475646879 mm/sec (.0000000475646879 m/sec)
--Thought you could have a look-see before I put myself through more trouble
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 05-11-2002]
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 05-11-2002]
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 05-11-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by joz, posted 05-10-2002 12:00 PM joz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Joe Meert, posted 05-11-2002 7:32 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 65 of 84 (9528)
05-11-2002 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by TrueCreation
05-11-2002 7:21 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Pm - Mantle Density - w - Density of water (assuming 4oC or pressure overcomes the variation due to temperature) = 1000 kg/m^3
Av - Coefficient of thermal expansion
Tm - Mantle Temperature (as if it were a plume, mantle upwelling) = 1573.15K - 1773.15K
T0 - Surface Temperature = 373.15K
K - Thermal diffusivity = 1 mm^2 s^(-1)
X - Distance from center = 3000(?) meters
V - Estimated Velocity = 1.5 m (linear)/year, 4.109589 mm/day, 0.1712328 mm/hour, 0.0028538812 mm/min, .0000475646879 mm/sec (.0000000475646879 m/sec)
--Thought I would have you check before I put myself through more trouble
JM: TC, You can find what I used for my model on the link provided. I don't want you to duplicate my work, I want you to defend your own model. Seems to me that 1.5 m/year opening for the Atlantic won't quite do it on a 6000 year old earth. In fact, if you attribute the rapid drift to the flood, you not only end up with a shallow ocean, you end up with an extremely small ocean as well using your velocity.
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by TrueCreation, posted 05-11-2002 7:21 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Joe Meert, posted 05-11-2002 7:33 PM Joe Meert has not replied
 Message 67 by TrueCreation, posted 05-11-2002 7:42 PM Joe Meert has not replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 66 of 84 (9529)
05-11-2002 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Joe Meert
05-11-2002 7:32 PM


the new link
http://gondwanaresearch.com/oceans.htm
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Joe Meert, posted 05-11-2002 7:32 PM Joe Meert has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 84 (9530)
05-11-2002 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Joe Meert
05-11-2002 7:32 PM


"JM: TC, You can find what I used for my model on the link provided. I don't want you to duplicate my work, I want you to defend your own model. Seems to me that 1.5 m/year opening for the Atlantic won't quite do it on a 6000 year old earth. In fact, if you attribute the rapid drift to the flood, you not only end up with a shallow ocean, you end up with an extremely small ocean as well using your velocity."
--Some of your variables are the same or close to mine, though yours was not my reference. Thse are some links I found which I used to find my variables:
http://maps.dsc.unomaha.edu/Maher/GEOL2300/week10/exp.html
http://www.tcd.ie/Geology/Courses/ewf/lecture4.html
http://www.geophysik.uni-frankfurt.de/~schmelin/meltpap.html
http://jaeger.earthsci.unimelb.edu.au/msandifo/Publications/Manuscript s/Brown_Rushmer/Brown_Rushmer.html
http://www.unb.ca/courses/geol1001a/lec-8.htm
--And I don't know what my variables will show as of yet, I havent done the work yet. Also, I calculated an estimated velocity by the assumption that from ridge to continental crest is approx. 3000km. And so in figuring that:
quote:
V - Estimated Velocity = 1.5 m (linear)/year, 4.109589 mm/day, 0.1712328 mm/hour, 0.0028538812 mm/min, .0000475646879 mm/sec (.0000000475646879 m/sec)
--I am sure that the converstions here are fine though for 1.5m/year, I used 4500 years, thus 4500y/3000m = 1.5m? Or am I missing something simple/obvious?
--I hope we can go somewhere with this.
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 05-11-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Joe Meert, posted 05-11-2002 7:32 PM Joe Meert has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by TrueCreation, posted 05-11-2002 7:46 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 84 (9531)
05-11-2002 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by TrueCreation
05-11-2002 7:42 PM


..you know what, I think I found it..is it just me or is 'm' supposed to be 'km'? ok, I might want to slap myself. Let me reitterate.
silly me. I was wondering why my velocity was so very slow.
--It should be:
X - Distance from center = 3000 (kilo)meters
V - Velocity = 1.5 km (linear)/year, 4.109589 m/day, 0.1712328 m/hour, 0.0028538812 m/min, .0000475646879 m/sec (.0000000475646879 mm/sec)
Thus:
(edit)--Also, I still must ask you, wherever this is going to go. Do you know of a reliable geophysics text-book that goes over these types of equations and similar type information/data?
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 05-11-2002]
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 05-11-2002]
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 05-11-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by TrueCreation, posted 05-11-2002 7:42 PM TrueCreation has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Joe Meert, posted 05-11-2002 8:28 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 69 of 84 (9532)
05-11-2002 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by TrueCreation
05-11-2002 7:46 PM


Yes, I do. Geodynamics by Turcotte and Schubert is what I teach from. So far all you are doing is duplicating my work which already shows the problem you will face. What you need is a new model in order to get a deep ocean quickly.
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by TrueCreation, posted 05-11-2002 7:46 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by TrueCreation, posted 05-11-2002 11:38 PM Joe Meert has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 84 (9536)
05-11-2002 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Joe Meert
05-11-2002 8:28 PM


"Yes, I do. Geodynamics by Turcotte and Schubert is what I teach from. So far all you are doing is duplicating my work which already shows the problem you will face. What you need is a new model in order to get a deep ocean quickly."
--Thanks for the reference, it looks nice and half.com has a good price for it (within my range) so I might be able to get ahold of it. Also, was this ocean depth we are looking at or basalt thickness or something along that line, I'm skimming through your article but can't seem to find this pinpoint.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Joe Meert, posted 05-11-2002 8:28 PM Joe Meert has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Joe Meert, posted 05-12-2002 5:15 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 71 of 84 (9547)
05-12-2002 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by TrueCreation
05-11-2002 11:38 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"Yes, I do. Geodynamics by Turcotte and Schubert is what I teach from. So far all you are doing is duplicating my work which already shows the problem you will face. What you need is a new model in order to get a deep ocean quickly."
--Thanks for the reference, it looks nice and half.com has a good price for it (within my range) so I might be able to get ahold of it. Also, was this ocean depth we are looking at or basalt thickness or something along that line, I'm skimming through your article but can't seem to find this pinpoint.

JM: Well, the title of the page is a good hint!
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by TrueCreation, posted 05-11-2002 11:38 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by TrueCreation, posted 05-12-2002 7:42 PM Joe Meert has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 84 (9550)
05-12-2002 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Joe Meert
05-12-2002 5:15 PM


"JM: Well, the title of the page is a good hint!"
--Well sure a hint, but was just making sure. I will have to get more in-depth information to figure out what may be different in the flood scenario, or if it would be the same and thus would have a major problem. I'm going to order it monday (tomorrow) off of half.com, seems to be a good price so i'll hope it is worth it.
http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=1061983562&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1
--After I do some reading we will be able to have a much more effective discussion.
--BTW did baumgardner do any profiling on sea-floor topography such as you have, and if so what is wrong with his calculations, or did he not address it?
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Joe Meert, posted 05-12-2002 5:15 PM Joe Meert has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Joe Meert, posted 05-12-2002 10:20 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 73 of 84 (9554)
05-12-2002 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by TrueCreation
05-12-2002 7:42 PM


quote:
--BTW did baumgardner do any profiling on sea-floor topography such as you have, and if so what is wrong with his calculations, or did he not address it?
JM: As far as I know, he did not deal with it. He was more worried about subduction and simply said the Atlantic ocean opened as a result of subduction elsewhere. It's one of many problems with Baugardner's model. It's also what happens when your religion leads you astray!
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by TrueCreation, posted 05-12-2002 7:42 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by TrueCreation, posted 05-14-2002 12:41 AM Joe Meert has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 84 (9616)
05-14-2002 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Joe Meert
05-12-2002 10:20 PM


"JM: As far as I know, he did not deal with it. He was more worried about subduction and simply said the Atlantic ocean opened as a result of subduction elsewhere. It's one of many problems with Baugardner's model. It's also what happens when your religion leads you astray!"
--This is the only calculated graphing I found of his:
http://www.icr.org/research/jb/largescaletectonicsfigures.htm
--I don't think he addresses sea-floor topography on a large or appropriate scale though.
--Also, I just ordered the text-book on Geodynamics you recommended. Should be shipped Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll keep you posted on when I get it and what i'll read before we continue a more insightful discussion.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Joe Meert, posted 05-12-2002 10:20 PM Joe Meert has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Joe Meert, posted 05-14-2002 1:36 AM TrueCreation has not replied

  
Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5680 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 75 of 84 (9621)
05-14-2002 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by TrueCreation
05-14-2002 12:41 AM


quote:
--I don't think he addresses sea-floor topography on a large or appropriate scale though.
JM: He doesn't address the relevant question at all.
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by TrueCreation, posted 05-14-2002 12:41 AM TrueCreation has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Joe Meert, posted 05-15-2002 8:20 PM Joe Meert has not replied

  
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