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Author Topic:   Monotheism, Yahweh and his Asherah
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6077 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 1 of 54 (413347)
07-30-2007 12:49 PM


what do we know of ancient middle eastern cultures to back up that they praised masculine (hero) figures and was it important enough to slander a female figure like done with Asherah in the bible. As most of us know a multitude of figurines and texts of this goddess have been found which claimed she was Yahweh's consort. There are signs - through archaeological evidence - Asherah was a highly regarded goddess ...despite the biblical version of her figure!

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 8:55 AM Reding has not replied
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AdminNem
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 54 (413505)
07-31-2007 8:43 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 54 (413508)
07-31-2007 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Reding
07-30-2007 12:49 PM


what do we know of ancient middle eastern cultures to back up that they praised masculine (hero) figures and was it important enough to slander a female figure like done with Asherah in the bible. As most of us know a multitude of figurines and texts of this goddess have been found which claimed she was Yahweh's consort. There are signs - through archaeological evidence - Asherah was a highly regarded goddess ...despite the biblical version of her figure!
There were countless idols in the Middle East, but more specifically, a fertility goddess. Asherah was no exception to the rule. The Bible has much to say about her, consequently, all negative.
"Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole beside the altar you build to the LORD your God." -Deuteronomy 16:21
"The Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD; they forgot the LORD their God and served the Baals and the Asherahs." -Judges 3:7
There are at least six more corresponding passages that view her negatively within Scripture.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

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 Message 1 by Reding, posted 07-30-2007 12:49 PM Reding has not replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 4 of 54 (413539)
07-31-2007 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2007 8:55 AM


so?
we already know that 1. the bible talks about her and 2. the bible talks badly about her. these two were stated in the OP. please say something useful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 8:55 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

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 Message 5 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 2:33 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 54 (413571)
07-31-2007 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by macaroniandcheese
07-31-2007 11:12 AM


The point
we already know that 1. the bible talks about her and 2. the bible talks badly about her. these two were stated in the OP. please say something useful.
There are a plethora of male demigods that were worshipped too, which is why I specifically chose a verse that spoke both about Baal and Ashterah.
I guess the good question to the OP is what is the point of the inquiry.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-31-2007 11:12 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-31-2007 3:07 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 7 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2007 4:38 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 6 of 54 (413579)
07-31-2007 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2007 2:33 PM


Re: The point
There are a plethora of male demigods that were worshipped too, which is why I specifically chose a verse that spoke both about Baal and Ashterah.
the OP is asking about Asherah, good job.
I guess the good question to the OP is what is the point of the inquiry.
to ask what the reality of Asherah was, not what the bible says about her. you know, like the OP asked?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 2:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 7:21 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 54 (413600)
07-31-2007 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2007 2:33 PM


ba'al
There are a plethora of male demigods that were worshipped too, which is why I specifically chose a verse that spoke both about Baal and Ashterah.
ba'al is a semitic word, across many cultures, that means "lord." not sure what the cognate in hebrew would be -- but ba'al is used something like elohim in hebrew, used in association with a god's actual name: ba'al hadad like yahweh elohim. also like elohim, in some cultures, it became interchangable with the name of the local deity it represented.
asherot might be a general term the bible uses for the consorts of ba'alim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 2:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 7:24 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6077 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 8 of 54 (413605)
07-31-2007 4:58 PM


my appologies if i wasn't clear enough but as brenna pointed out i was curious about Asherah, not so much because she was a goddess but rahter why someone from the opposite sex - as i understand it - was taken down while the evidence show clear signs of worship, of a deity very important within the ancient hebrew culture. Something comparable happened to Mary Magdalene. Makes one wonder how important they really found the male god figure and wether this god was actually a reality of their everyday life as opposed to yet another creation of mankind in those times. Why would the israelites choose to drop Asherah in the presence of a fearful male god? It appears to me the israelites had the saying unless the scriptures were manipulated afterwards. After all our society's background (opposite sexes marrying and raising children) is typical jewish/christian. I hope i'm clear now, english is not my native language but i'm trying my best...

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2007 5:23 PM Reding has replied
 Message 13 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 7:32 PM Reding has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 9 of 54 (413608)
07-31-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Reding
07-30-2007 12:49 PM


asherah
when god introduces himself to moses, he says
quote:
ahayah asher ahayah
i am that i am
i find it mildly amusing that the word asher is used -- the same spelling as the feminine asherah.
it's somewhat clear for ugarit that asherah was el's wife, and in israel seems to have been important enough that we keep digging up relics related to her, and that the prophets had to continually speak out against her.
it's an important reminder that the bible doesn't actually present history as it was, but as the authors wanted it to be. after all, much of it is sermon. how would historians react to your average church sermon today? we obviously didn't do stem cell research, or let gays get married, or allowed abortions. well -- no. what the people did and what the prophets railed against were often the same things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Reding, posted 07-30-2007 12:49 PM Reding has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 54 (413613)
07-31-2007 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Reding
07-31-2007 4:58 PM


patriarchy
rahter why someone from the opposite sex - as i understand it - was taken down while the evidence show clear signs of worship, of a deity very important within the ancient hebrew culture.
simply put, ancient hebrews were patriarchal. the male ran everything, women got jack. women were property of the men. a female deity would be a challenge to the sovereignty of the male yahweh -- and the religious leaders were strictly and violently monotheistic.
curiously, the idea of a female consort (or feminine qualities) of god shows up again in the shekinah.
Something comparable happened to Mary Magdalene.
well, that's simply guess work. we don't know that mariam of migdal even existed, let alone had a relationship with christ, who we also don't know anything about. but from archaeology, we know what some ancient hebrews and most of the surrounding cultures thought about asherah.
but mariam of migdal would seem to have been written out for a different reason. asherah was a polytheism concern (jews are much more accepting of marriage and sexuality but NOT plural gods), whereas mariam was removed due to concerns about chastity, and influence from greece.
Why would the israelites choose to drop Asherah in the presence of a fearful male god?
there's a story about a missionary trip to an african tribe. after hearing the stories the christians told, they decided they had best worship satan. afterall, god will forgive you, but satan isn't as kind.
It appears to me the israelites had the saying unless the scriptures were manipulated afterwards.
well, no, they were written afterwards, and by people from a very specific ideological standpoint who were seeking to push a particular point.


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 Message 8 by Reding, posted 07-31-2007 4:58 PM Reding has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 54 (413649)
07-31-2007 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by macaroniandcheese
07-31-2007 3:07 PM


Re: The point
quote:
I guess the good question to the OP is what is the point of the inquiry.
to ask what the reality of Asherah was, not what the bible says about her. you know, like the OP asked?
The OP says that figurines were fashioned to represent her, and from that he has deduced that many Israelites were quite fond of her. Well, no kidding. Which is why Moses said stop worshipping idols. So that still doesn't answer the question.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-31-2007 3:07 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 54 (413650)
07-31-2007 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by arachnophilia
07-31-2007 4:38 PM


Re: ba'al
asherot might be a general term the bible uses for the consorts of ba'alim.
But why the distinction in the Judges passage of a demigod and a goddess of fertility?

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2007 4:38 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2007 9:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 54 (413652)
07-31-2007 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Reding
07-31-2007 4:58 PM


my appologies if i wasn't clear enough but as brenna pointed out i was curious about Asherah, not so much because she was a goddess but rahter why someone from the opposite sex - as i understand it - was taken down while the evidence show clear signs of worship, of a deity very important within the ancient hebrew culture.
I don't understand what you mean by taken down? I'm also detecting a subtle implication here-- that they only had done so because she was a female. Obviously, the qualifier is that she was a pagan god, since Molech and Ba'al were demigods but also denounced.
Why would the israelites choose to drop Asherah in the presence of a fearful male god? It appears to me the israelites had the saying unless the scriptures were manipulated afterwards.
What evidence do you have that the scriptures were manipulated? You said that among the Israelites, many of them worshiped pagan deities, such as Asherah. That's true. We have both a historical record as well as physical evidence pointing to that truism. However, you seem to be making a case that means that all Israelites were the same. That's not true. I'm sure there were polytheistic Israelites just like there were monotheistic Israelites or atheistic Israelites.
If your over over-arching question is why she is viewed negatively in the Scriptures, its because Moses and the other founders of Judaism refer to her as a false god-- which is, no god at all. And again, she wasn't the only one. She was one of many.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

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 Message 8 by Reding, posted 07-31-2007 4:58 PM Reding has replied

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 Message 20 by Reding, posted 08-01-2007 8:12 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 14 of 54 (413668)
07-31-2007 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2007 7:24 PM


ba'al and asherot
But why the distinction in the Judges passage of a demigod and a goddess of fertility?
which passage would that be?
anyways, female goddesses are typically fertility icons. wouldn't be especially surprising. the references i see in judges are still very ambiguous. the one you provide above (3:7) says:
quote:
‘-— - ‘ , - —; ‘ -‘—, -
v'y'asu beni-yisrael et-ha-ra b'eyni yahueh v'y'shekechu et-yahueh elohihem, v'y'abedu et-ha-bealim v'et-ha-asherot
and-did sons-isreal (d.o.)-the-evil in-sight yahweh, and-forgot (d.o.)-yahweh god(their), and-served (d.o.)-the-{baal}s and-(d.o.)-the-{asherah}s
and the children of israel commited evil in the eyes of THE LORD, and forget THE LORD their god, and served {foreign gods}.
i'm not sure of a good way to render "ba'alim and asherot." they're plural, and thus quite clearly general -- had they been singular, they'd be individual gods by name. but they're not. there seems to be more than one "asherah" and more than one "ba'al"
Edited by arachnophilia, : broken tag


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 7:24 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-01-2007 9:38 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 15 of 54 (413671)
07-31-2007 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Reding
07-30-2007 12:49 PM


ishtar?
asherah is apparently related (in ugarit) the canaanite goddess astarte, which is the sumerian ishtar. even more curiously...
ishtar is a cognate of esther in hebrew -- another queen, a wife of a king who has great power over the fate of the hebrew people. it's possible that the asherah tradition surfaces, thought quite veiled, in the book of esther. just a thought.
Edited by arachnophilia, : minor typo. too many foreign words, bound to mess one up.


This message is a reply to:
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