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Author | Topic: Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Calvinism has been growing among Christians for a couple of decades now, it could even be called a movement of sorts. And here you are, disagreeing with the straight-forward ramifications of Calvin's position.
Even after learning them you can be thrown by people who come at you with their own raw system of terminology, that's basically what I'm encountering in this discussion. Actually, that's called Cognitive Dissonance... you're finding yourself not believing in the ramifications of something that you think you believe in.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I know of no Calvinist who actually believe in what Calvin wrote. Its kinda like the concept of hell. Its not so bad in passing, but when you get it down on paper and really look at it, its awful and people don't want to talk about it anymore.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Let's use an example.
2 Kings 23-24:
quote: Here's the NIV for a different wording:
quote: So Elisha gets teased by some kids, he curses them in the name of the Lord, and then two bears come out and kill 42 kids. Did God do that? Kill 42 kids for teasing a guy? Did God set it up in advance? Or was He just following Elisha's (fallen) orders? What's the Calvinist position on this one? 'Cause that's pretty bad to kill some kids for making fun of your prophet...
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The counsels and actions of men are originated by men. So then, that is the limit of God's potency.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If they can't do it unless God wills it, then it does not originate in man, it originates with God.
You're contradicting yourself.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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The ideas are conceived by us, If God isn't conceiving them, then that is a limit of his potency; our conception.
their execution is allowed or disallowed, organized, arranged, directed, governed, etc. by God. According to Calvin, their conception is from God as well.
No, you are experiencing a problem reading or you haven't bothered to read the thread. No, I get it: You want to call yourself a Calvinist but you can't bring yourself to accept his ramifications. That you think the problem lies in others is just your cognitive dissonance.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
To think that such an educated man as Calvin would be subjected to such ignorance rather takes the breath away. Do you think he knew that the Earth was billions of years old?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Poor Calvin. Poor reality. Poor history. Poor knowledge. Poor sanity. Why are you so reluctant to agree that Calvinism says that God controls everything including our thoughts?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Its kinda weird that you acknowledged your own reply...
Calvin writes: Therefore, when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, Because he pleased. Heh, that reminds me of that South Park episode... God is all: "Its my hot universe, I'll do what I want"
And apparently according to Calvin, that's all we can say about that.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Because our thoughts are full of sin and God can't sin. Ah, so that's where you put the limit on God's potency.
Calvin is completely scriptural and I may not have the best grasp of all his arguments but I do know that when somebody starts claiming anything he said supports sin in God they're off the track. Calvin said what he wrote. If you don't accept it, then don't. But to call yourself a Calvanist and then deny that he says what he wrote only makes you look foolish.
If they think it's right there in his quotes they are misreading his quotes even if to them it looks open and shut, This whole "you're reading him wrong" schtick is a big stinking pile of bullshit. You are not the grand arbitor of Calvin's words and there's really nothing binding you to accepting his ideas. If it turns out that you reject Calvinism, then you should be willing to accept that. Why aren't you? What's the big deal?
quote: According to Calvin, God does cause us to sin. The only escape that you have is to say that causing us to sin is not a sin, itself.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Good grief I would have thought this much would be clear by now. The arguments have over and over tried to prove that Calvin supported a view of God that scripture contradicts and that is simply absolutely impossible. I haven't seen anyone make that argument. Nobody is saying this stuff contradicts scripture.
YOU are the one saying it contradicts scripture. But that's because you're not a True Calvinist, you place limits on God's potency, e.g. He cannot xxx.
DIRECTS men's counsels, EXCITES their wills, REGULATES their efforts as he pleases but nothing in this quote says he originates the counsels or their wills or their efforts themselves, He just MOVES them as He pleases. The counsels, the contents of their wills and their efforts are already there. That's retarded. Exciting a man's will is causing him to desire. When God excites your will he is making you want something. He is the source. Which should be obvious, because He is the source of EVERYTHING. You're just trying to discount the ramifications of what Calvin says because you can't bring yourself to accept that God is the cause of sin. But a True Calvinist does accept that God is the cause of sin, as that is what Calvin, himself, wrote. He even goes so far as to say that God set up The Fall.
First, again, none of the quotes imply that God originates the sinful thoughts. Sure it does: God directs men's counsel. Your counsel is your policy of behavior. If God is directing it then He is choosing your behavior for you. That is Calvinism.
But if any of it is supposed to be understood as His determining the content of our thoughts, That's exactly what Calvinism is.
quote: and
quote: According to Calvin, you can't do anything at all, even think, that hasn't been pre-determined by God that you will do it, or think it. I'm surprised that you are this ignorant of Calvinism. I'm surprised that me, as a Catholic, has a better understanding of Calvinism than you do. But then, I'm not limiting myself by accepting and believing what Calvin said so I don't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance that you do.
then I'd have to see how Calvin understands that God could do that and not sin Himself, which of course he'd have to argue because he's biblical and scripture says God can't sin. As I said: God causing us to sin is not a sin, itself. Its a piece of cake hand-wave. No problem. God causing us to sin can't be sin because God doesn't sin (notice I didn't say can't). Sin is the separation from God, and God doesn't separate Him from Himself. But he does predetermine that you will be separated from Him before you are even born, according to Calvin. He says that God already picked and chose every thought and action that you will ever take in your life. That is Calvinism. How do you not know this?
The cavalier way you all think Calvin could support sin in God Himself when he's known as the most Biblical of theologians is a monumental error. Who except for you is saying that this all means that God is sinning? Aren't you the only one?
You are committing a version of Vulgar Calvinism. No, you are just not a True Calvinist.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Calvinism cannot say that God sins. Period. Nobody has said that Calvinism says that God sins. Quite the opposite actually. What Calvin does say is that God causes you to sin. You are saying that God causing you to sin is a sin itself. And in saying that you are rejecting Calvinism. Because Calvin maintains that God remains sinless despite causing all of us to sin.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
YOU deduce from Calvin's words that God sins because you believe he's saying God directly ordained sinful inclinations, No, Calvin himself says that God directly ordained sinful inclinations. But Calvin does not call this a sin on God' part and he actually says that it is not a sin. You, Faith, are the one who is saying that God directly ordaining sinful inclinations would be a sin on God' part. That is a rejection of Calvinism, which says the opposite of what you say.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Some say God allowed for the possibility of evil but that humans chose to actualize it. Sinful inclinations would be defined as the possibility of evil, whereas the actualization is up to us. That's fine, but those people are not Calvinists.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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But so far none of the quotes I've seen say that. Open your eyes and read.
The inclination was already present, something to do with the nature of things, and God directed it. That's what I keep seeing. Calvin says that the perverse things that men do are of God and that the wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. God has exactly destined even the will of man. Every single thing that man does is because God chose that he would do it.
But if what you are saying is correct and Calvinists see it that way I'll have to find it out later, from those who have studied this more thoroughly. For being someone who calls themself a Calvinist, your awfully ignorant of what Calvin actually says. Perhaps you should learn about things before claiming to be a part of them.
But there's going to have to be some other way of resolving it than the Arminians' way because that just makes God weak. Sure, there's the Calvinism way: God making us sin is not a sin, itself. Why do you reject the Calvinist way and then still call yourself a Calvinist? And how does the Arminians' way make God weak? I'm not familiar with their stuff.
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