Good grief I would have thought this much would be clear by now. The arguments have over and over tried to prove that Calvin supported a view of God that scripture contradicts and that is simply absolutely impossible.
I haven't seen anyone make that argument. Nobody is saying this stuff contradicts scripture.
YOU are the one saying it contradicts scripture. But that's because you're not a True Calvinist, you place limits on God's potency, e.g. He cannot xxx.
DIRECTS men's counsels, EXCITES their wills, REGULATES their efforts as he pleases but nothing in this quote says he originates the counsels or their wills or their efforts themselves, He just MOVES them as He pleases. The counsels, the contents of their wills and their efforts are already there.
That's retarded. Exciting a man's will is causing him to desire.
When God excites your will he is making you want something. He is the source.
Which should be obvious, because He is the source of
EVERYTHING.
You're just trying to discount the ramifications of what Calvin says because you can't bring yourself to accept that God is the cause of sin.
But a True Calvinist does accept that God is the cause of sin, as that is what Calvin, himself, wrote.
He even goes so far as to say that God set up The Fall.
First, again, none of the quotes imply that God originates the sinful thoughts.
Sure it does: God directs men's counsel.
Your counsel is your policy of behavior. If God is directing it then He is choosing your behavior for you. That is Calvinism.
But if any of it is supposed to be understood as His determining the content of our thoughts,
That's exactly what Calvinism is.
quote:
Calvin's doctrine of providence is straightforward. "All events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God." Therefore, nothing happens but what [God] has knowingly and willingly decreed.
and
quote:
According to Calvin, the idea that man has free will and is able to make choices independently of what God has already determined is based on our limited understanding of God's perfection and the idea that God's purposes can be circumvented. In this mode of thought, providence is related to predestination. This concept remains prominent among many Protestant denominations that identify with Calvinism, the Reformed churches.
According to Calvin, you can't do anything at all, even think, that hasn't been pre-determined by God that you will do it, or think it.
I'm surprised that you are this ignorant of Calvinism. I'm surprised that me, as a Catholic, has a better understanding of Calvinism than you do.
But then, I'm not limiting myself by accepting and believing what Calvin said so I don't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance that you do.
then I'd have to see how Calvin understands that God could do that and not sin Himself, which of course he'd have to argue because he's biblical and scripture says God can't sin.
As I said: God causing us to sin is not a sin, itself.
Its a piece of cake hand-wave. No problem.
God causing us to sin can't be sin because God doesn't sin (notice I didn't say can't). Sin is the separation from God, and God doesn't separate Him from Himself. But he does predetermine that you will be separated from Him before you are even born, according to Calvin.
He says that God already picked and chose every thought and action that you will ever take in your life. That is Calvinism. How do you not know this?
The cavalier way you all think Calvin could support sin in God Himself when he's known as the most Biblical of theologians is a monumental error.
Who except for you is saying that this all means that God is sinning?
Aren't you the only one?
You are committing a version of Vulgar Calvinism.
No, you are just not a True Calvinist.
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