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Author Topic:   Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?
dwise1
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Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 141 of 405 (743412)
11-30-2014 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
11-30-2014 7:08 PM


Re: God is good; God is sovereign
Do you unbelievers sit up nights trying to find the worst possible motive for everything a believer says?
No, we don't have to. All we do is read and listen to what believers write and say and watch what they do and receive the clear message that is being expressed so plainly. In contrast, believers must be carefully training in what to think and how to interpret and how to decide what they must infer the Bible to be saying. In sharp contrast, non-believers simply read what the Bible actually says.
It's the believers who have to spend many hours of study and training, including sitting up nights trying to figure out how to keep their story straight and how to re-interpret everything, even their own founders' writings, to fit their current theology. Non-believers simply read and listen and see what's actually there.
Slight tangent here that is still somewhat pertinent. Some years ago, I stumbled upon a British atheist site that carried a wonderful story; I really wish I had saved that URL, but alas I had not. The story involved a village whose inhabitants were atheists by default, since they had never any contact at all with any religions, including Christianity. Into this village walks a Christian missionary. As he starts conversing with the first inhabitant he meets, he learns of the village's great ignorance, so he starts to tell that person about Christianity. The fellow is very interested to hear this great message and he calls over everybody nearby, who in turn call over others, so that the entire village is soon standing there eager to hear what this stranger has to say. Before this group, the missionary began to preach the Gospel. The village listened attentively and with great interest, but they had questions. In fact, everything the missionary said raised a question, so they had to interrupt him repeatedly with their questions. They were puzzled about the things that the missionary had long taken for granted and, when they asked for explanations, the missionary's answers just raised even more questions. Faced with having to provide answers about the most basic tenets of his faith, questions that he himself had never asked and hence could not answer, the missionary simply turned and left the town despite the cries and pleas from the villagers to remain and teach them. As I recall, the villagers finally simply shrugged their shoulders, forgot all that foolishness, and went about their lives happily and prosperously.
Of course, the author of that story had a lesson he was wanting to impart, which I believe was that an honest and direct examination of Christian doctrine would reveal its faults which believers cannot see because of their indoctrination and conditioning. The application I can see for it here is in how you and other "true Christians" have to be carefully trained and thoroughly indoctrinated in order to view everything as being consistent with your particular narrow theology, whereas someone without all that careful training and indoctrination, someone viewing these things through the eyes of someone seeing and hearing these things for the first time, would see something completely different.
Another way of viewing that may come from what a creationist had told me a bit over a decade ago on a Google forum. He had just used a weak old PRATT (sodium residence time in oceans, as I recall) and I had demolished his claim with the truth about residence times. Then I asked him why he had to depend on such unconvincing arguments such as that and the other PRATTs he would use and which were all shown to be false. He told me, {EPIPHANY!!!}"The only reason you don't find them convincing is because you are not yet convinced yourself."{/EPIPHANY!!!} That one response answered so many questions I had had about creationist behavior.
You are already convinced, so you are able and obligated to twist and distort everything to continue to support your narrow theology. We are not already convinced, so we simply read what has actually been written. It's kind of like when we write something. We "know what we have written", so every time we look at our own writing see what we "know is there". That is why we need to have somebody else look at what we've written, someone who does not know "what we know we have written", but rather who will see what we have actually written.
To take another approach, I've encountered two types of teachers of a skill: 1) those who have practiced the skill for so long that it comes naturally to them, and 2) those who still remember what it's like to be a beginner. My Russian professor described that situation in foreign language instruction. His opinion was that, while you should have a native speaker as a teacher later in your instruction, in the first year you should have a non-native speaker. Beginning students make a fairly consistent set of mistakes when starting to learn a particular foreign language; those sets of mistakes are also contingent on the students' original language -- our French text in my French phonology class, in describing each sound in French would also list the problems normally encountered by native speakers of various other languages. A teacher who had also been a beginning student of the language would understand why a student had made a particular mistake and would be able to explain that mistake and correct it, whereas a native speaker would only know that the student had made a mistake and would not know why.
Faith, you should remember what it was like to be a beginner. You should try to draw on that experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 11-30-2014 7:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 11-30-2014 8:37 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 143 of 405 (743418)
11-30-2014 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
11-30-2014 8:37 PM


Re: God is good; God is sovereign
Case in point I'm afraid. I said nothing to deserve that, and neither did Calvin.
No, that is not true. Please stop playing the martyr, because everybody knows that that is pure bullshit. Here is what you said:
Faith writes:
Do you unbelievers sit up nights trying to find the worst possible motive for everything a believer says?
My reply was primarily that unbelievers simply respond to what they hear and read, while it is the believers who have to work so hard to manufacture all kinds of convolutions and contrivances. You, as a believer, must twist and distort and apply only "orthodox" interpretations to everything, even to what Calvin himself had written and even to what the Bible actually says (choosing instead what you can force the Bible to "infer"), whereas unbelievers can simply look and see what's actually there. Hence, in direct response to your specific comment quoted above, rather it is the believers who have to sit awake at night dreaming up new sophistries, while the unbelievers can use that time to sleep soundly.
As for trying to recall the mental state of a beginner I suppose after twenty five years of believing I have unfortunately lost that perspective, ...
Pity. I also contribute on a C programming forum. Even though I have been programming since 1977 (hence, nearly 40 years, compared to your 25), I constantly try to keep in mind what the beginner is going through. My ex-wife thoroughly hated math, especially algebra, because her father's degree was in math. He would try to help her with her algebra homework and it would always collapse into a one-sided shouting match ("No comprendes?" "No" "No comprendes?" "No" "No comprendes?" "No", etc, etc, etc). Her father was like a native speaker of a foreign language, it was all so natural and self-evident to him that he could not understand how anyone could possibly not understand it. Similarly, when she "tried to teach me how to dance" after she had herself been dancing since early childhood, her entire syllabus was quite literally, "Just listen to the music and do what it tells you to do." As a listener, which is a purely mental exercise, that told me absolutely nothing, gave me absolutely nothing to work with, and led to her spending the next two decades brainwashing me that I had absolutely no sense of rhythm and could never ever possibly learn to dance. Since then, I have proven to be a partner dance with excellent leading skills and have frequently been complimented on my "natural rhythm", while the reports that have filtered back to me are that my ex is still a horrible follower. BTW, despite her hatred and total rejection of algebra, I observed my ex instructing my son in mental calculation tricks that required algebra -- she hated algebra so passionately that any mention of the very work could send her into a rage, or at least into a rant, yet here she was actually employing it. Plus she once won a "how many jelly beans are in this jar?" contest by employing the shell method, a multiple integration method that's covered in third semester calculus.
Faith, try to think back to what had converted you. Supposedly, at that time you were not yet convinced. Try to think of what had convinced you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 11-30-2014 8:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 11-30-2014 10:50 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 148 of 405 (743427)
11-30-2014 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
11-30-2014 10:50 PM


Re: God is good; God is sovereign
Oh, yes, there are so many options. What caused you, or what causes anybody else to follow the path that they/you have? So many different paths, all following different options. Most of which nobody is aware. So what?!?!?!?
Of course, if you could offer up some of the options that had led to your present position, that could have led to some kind of support for your position. No such reasoning for your present position exists? OK, soit! (French for "So be it!")
There is no excuse for most of the accusatory stuff that goes on here.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Oscar? Assuming you are totally unfamiliar with military terminology, that stands for "What the fuck? Over!" (the "over" indicates end of transmission for you land-lubbers). What "accusatory stuff"? Are you trying to play that same old "Christian persecution" bullshit? We've heard that bullshit far too many times before. Three quesses where that gets filed -- the first three guesses don't count (think "round").
But seriously, even though it is totally lost on your lost and fallen mentality: what had caused you to forsake reality and proceed down the paths of our theology?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 11-30-2014 10:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 11-30-2014 11:32 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 150 of 405 (743429)
11-30-2014 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
11-30-2014 11:32 PM


Re: God is good; God is sovereign
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Oscar????
Calvin's "motivations in this specific case"? Who the fuck cares???
Did he in fact say what he said? Since you freaking Calvinists accept what he said as Gospel, then what is this bullshit of "oh, gee, what were his motivations in this specific case?" Are you yet again trying to play up to that "relativistic morality"card you had pulled some months ago?
But let us lend our scrutiny to your latest post itself:
I meant options for understanding Calvin's motivations in this specific case, but any believer's motivations.
What is "but any believer's motivations" supposed to mean? I cannot discern any possible meaning that that clause could possibly have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 11-30-2014 11:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
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