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Author Topic:   Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 13 of 352 (521227)
08-26-2009 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ochaye
08-26-2009 2:36 PM


If BoM does not contradict any Bible teaching, why not just make do with the Bible?
Why do people think they need another Scripture?
I'm not Mormon, nor am I a Chrisitan at all and I can see the obvious answer. There are passages in the Bible that are difficult to decipher or to understand, especially since we're 2000 years (or more) removed from the events taking place. An updated book with explanations and more recent revelations would be pretty handy, wouldn't they?

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 Message 12 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 2:36 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 4:05 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 17 of 352 (521252)
08-26-2009 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ochaye
08-26-2009 4:05 PM


It would if the Bible needs explanations, but people thought it did not do so long before there the BoM was written. In fact, just as soon as ordinary people were allowed to read the Bible, it was widely reckoned to be complete, and by the most learned people, too.
True, but so the Jews believe about the Torah.
And besides, it matters not what people believe. If the Bible, both Old and New Testament, as well as the BoM are really revelations form God, then it depends on what HE believes is necessary.

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 Message 16 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 4:05 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 4:26 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 20 of 352 (521259)
08-26-2009 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ochaye
08-26-2009 4:26 PM


If BoM does not contradict any Bible teaching, why do Mormons not just make do with the Bible?
Well, one answer is because a book can expand or add to a previous work without contradicting it. The Two Towers and The Return Of The King don't contradict The Fellowship Of The Ring, but I wouldn't suggest that you only need to read the one.
The second answer, if you're Mormon, is that God gave you this new book, so there must be something in it that God wanted us to know. Why would you disregard a God-given book just because it doesn't contradict anything in the previous book?

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 Message 18 by ochaye, posted 08-26-2009 4:26 PM ochaye has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 29 of 352 (521435)
08-27-2009 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ochaye
08-27-2009 9:52 AM


Of course. But that statement makes an assumption, that itself may be a fatal one, that there is anything more to learn. Is there anything in the Bible that gives anyone that impression? Is there anything in the Bible that gives an impression that learning 'more' may indeed be fatal, because 'more' means less?
Which is, as Rahvin pointed out to you right near the beginning, the actual relevant question. Namely, How do we know this book is accurate or correct?
That's something you'll have to ask the Mormons. It's the same question you'll have to ask all Christians regarding the New testament in regards to the old one. It's something you'll have to ask the Jews in regard to every book after Genesis.
I would hazard to guess that they believe the BoM comes from God, and as such, they would consider rejecting it to be tantamount to rejecting God. It's faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 9:52 AM ochaye has replied

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 Message 30 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 1:48 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 31 of 352 (521453)
08-27-2009 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ochaye
08-27-2009 1:48 PM


Is there anything in the Bible that gives anyone the impression that there is more to learn?
Is there anything in the Bible which indicates that nothing more will ever be forthcoming, that after Revelations, God would no longer inspire people to writer anything down?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 1:48 PM ochaye has replied

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 Message 32 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:12 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 33 of 352 (521460)
08-27-2009 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ochaye
08-27-2009 2:12 PM


Ok, does the Bible say there will be more? No. Does that mean there won't be? No. So, if there is no indication either way on whether there will be more information forthcoming, it comes down to personal credulity regarding some new claim of revelation.
For instance, I like to read books. I'm currently very engaged in a series that is currently being written, and while there is an overarching storyline within which eahc book rests, there is no necessary indication that there is another book coming apart form the author himself saying he wants to keep writing the series. So, do I assume, when I finish a book that doesn't leave any loose ends, that there will be nothing more, or do I hope that there will be, and when I find something that indicates pretty strongly, to me, that this new book on the shelf is, indeed, another chapter in the series, believe that it is indeed so?
Your argument seems to be, well God didn't say he was going to write again, so that MUST mean he stopped writing and will never write again. Whereas the Mormons (and indeed, anyone who believes more than just Genesis) believe that God makes revelations when and where he sees fit and that the story is on going.

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 Message 32 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:12 PM ochaye has replied

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 Message 34 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:31 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 35 of 352 (521469)
08-27-2009 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ochaye
08-27-2009 2:31 PM


Ok. Does it give any impression that there will be more?
No. Why do you think it would? Would God have put a PS at the end of Revelation that says, "Stay tuned for more, same God channel, same God time"?
He didn't do so at the end of the Old Testament. He didn't do so at the end of any of the books of either testament. He didn't do so in the Koran, either, for that matter. Why would he have done so at the end of the New Testament?

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 Message 34 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:31 PM ochaye has replied

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 Message 36 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:57 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 37 of 352 (521485)
08-27-2009 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ochaye
08-27-2009 2:57 PM


Because the OT gives the impression there will be more.
It says there will be a Messiah. No where does it say there will be another book, and no where in the New Testament does it say that this is the end of the story.
Even if the OT does indicate there will be more, that doesn't mean every new chapter must be foreindicated.

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 Message 36 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 2:57 PM ochaye has replied

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 Message 38 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 3:36 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 39 of 352 (521491)
08-27-2009 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ochaye
08-27-2009 3:36 PM


But does it give an indication that there is more to come?
We've been over this. No it doesn't, but I see no reason why it should.
Genesis gave no indication that more would come. In fact, except for the books that mention a Messiah, nothing in the OT indicates more would come. Unless you take the book as a whole, which is not how it was written by any stretch of the imagination, we should stop with Genesis by your reasoning.
The OT also says what the Messiah should do (arguments aside of whether Jesus fulfilled these predictions) why should they have to write a book detailing it, they already had the highlight reel (so to speak). Maybe because there was more to be learned by the details? And the BoM gives more details and offers more to learn that the OT and NT don't cover.
I've answered your questions, can you please answer one of mine:
Why would there have to be an indication of more to come?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 3:36 PM ochaye has replied

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 Message 40 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 3:59 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 41 of 352 (521506)
08-27-2009 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ochaye
08-27-2009 3:59 PM


Ok. So, the Messiah, who was promised and prophesied in the OT, fulfilled the indication of the OT. There being no similar indications in the NT, the expectation is reasonably, on the assumption that God would use the same 'methodology' for further revelation, that there will be no further event to be expected that will necessitate recording of other revelation. If the divine rationale is that future events are to be pre-indicated, then one would expect nothing more of this nature. Is that fair comment?
It's one I would disagree with. It assumes a number of things that I don't think are warranted.
1) It assumes God must always behave the same way.
2) It assumes the OT and the NT are self contained books as opposed to the compilations of many stories and books.
3) It assumes you know what the Divine Rationale is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 3:59 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:20 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 43 of 352 (521510)
08-27-2009 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ochaye
08-27-2009 4:20 PM


He and his apostles say that he always behaves in the same way, so it is somewhat casts doubt on one's project to suppose that he acts falsely.
I never said he acted falsely. I'm saying he may have had a reason for foreshadowing in one instance and not feeling the need to at another time. If this argument is true, it would work on your premise as well as mine. He didn't foreshadow more books coming after Genesis, so his precedent is to not foreshadow...
It takes into account the very obvious fact that the OT has no direct knowledge of the Messiah, whereas the NT is based upon the view that this knowledge has been made known.
Ok, but I don't see what this has to do with anything. All the books are there to reveal God's word and what he wants us to know, right? If he wants us to know more than what was revealed in the NT, he would reveal more, wouldn't he?
That is a re-statement of 1).
Not at all. His acting in different ways in different circumstances or not is a completely different topic than whether or not we know God's reasons for doing anything.

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 Message 42 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:20 PM ochaye has replied

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 Message 44 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:41 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 45 of 352 (521518)
08-27-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ochaye
08-27-2009 4:41 PM


Need to? On what basis would there be no need for pre-indication? When Jesus came, he came into a context, one that was revealed for over a thousand years, so that he was unmistakably identified. And yet we are now to use our wits as best we can, without divine assistance?
Which is how we decided which books to include in the Bible to begin with. Perhaps the foreshadowing of the Messiah was so that we weren't mistaken on something so important as the actual Son of God, but the books themselves are left for us to try and figure out ofr ourselves as a test of our rational thinking ability or some such.
Once again, how can we even begin to fathom the rationales of an omnipotent, omniscient sky man?
Perhaps, he knew the people alive during the Middle Ages, say, were not ready to know that there was more to come. Perhaps, God, in his infinite wisdom, knew that telling them they had an incomplete collection of God's revelations would have lead to more problems than doing it this way. Maybe people would have used that as a means of assuming control: claiming that what they were doing would be sanctioned by God in his next revelation, or that they already had God's next revelation and He had commanded this or that action.
Perhaps that's why he decided to finally reveal the next chapter (who knows if it's the last one) to an relative nobody on an entirely different continent from his previous revelations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:41 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:55 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 47 of 352 (521520)
08-27-2009 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ochaye
08-27-2009 4:55 PM


I think the LDS circularity/propaganda may be ignored.
I don't know what you mean here. Considering not only am I not a Mormon, I'm actually an atheist, I'm definitely not spewing propaganda.
Is there anything in the Bible, from Jesus or the apostles, that gives an impression that learning 'more' may be dangerous, because 'more' may mean less?
Considering you asked this question, I'm sure there must be.
If there is, please quote it for me, in context, and we can see if Jesus was really advocating not learning anything new from that moment on. If so, all the Christians who use modern technology are doomed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 4:55 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 5:38 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3260 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 51 of 352 (521534)
08-27-2009 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ochaye
08-27-2009 5:38 PM


Sure? So the comment that 'there was more to come' was hypothetical?
I was speaking from the point of view of a Mormon or perhaps other sect of Christianity that doesn't necessarily accept unconditionally that God will no longer ever inspire someone to write anything down ever again.
So is it not reasonable to suppose that any and all claimed newer general revelations must at best be held with suspicion because they are a) without promise, prophecy or other pre-indication, and b)are warned of as potentially dangerous. Might it not be safer to discount them entirely?
Not if there is some necessary information in the new writing. For instance, Jews don't hold the NT as inspired by God, they're still waiting for someone who actually fulfills the prophecy of the Messiah. Christians disagree and think that Jesus fulfilled them and more. Would you say we should try and get all Christians to give up the NT because it could be dangerous if the NT is actually wrong and they're all following a false messiah? How successful do you think we would be if we tried?
Holding it with suspicion would get back to the question Rahvin wanted you to answer...Should we accept this new revelation to be true and accurate. Most Christians don't accept the BoM, the Mormons have decided they think it is a true and accurate writing inspired by God. You're not forced to agree with them, but I would say you'd have to be obtuse not to see how someone could come to that conclusion based on the history of Judeo-Christian thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 5:38 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 6:03 PM Perdition has not replied

  
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