War on Christmas

Don’t worry about it . .

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It was fun then and its fun now. Although, admittedly, I much less of a childish dick face to face. And because your on the playground by choice and can leave whenever you want, I don’t feel bad for being the bully. Its all in good fun, IMHO. No harm, no foul. No, I think I’ll stick around, I kinda like it here. I’m interested in at least enjoying my time here. Grown-up serious political discussions don’t interest me much, and they’re boring. I can bring more than just trolling to the table, but I will bring a little, for extra flavor. Nah, you are the only one who can waste your time here. I can’t make you do anything. I don’t understand the question, is the grammar incorrect? link please. Maybe I’ll troll them for a while Actually, I won’t. Unless the “grown-ups” stop replying. And in reality, as a voting citizen I’m at the grown-up table already so yall better get used to us ill-manner children joining you.

Maybe that's because you're not a left-wing nutjob. For the record, I do too.

Although I understand and mostly share your sentiments, I also understand how, as a non-Christian, it feels to live in a culture that is simply awash in Christianity.There is almost no place to escape it. Every town of every size has at least one church, and many towns and cities have dozens and dozens. Only Christian religious holidays are deemed important enough to close our secular schools and governement offices. Our governement has become increasingly controlled by conservative Christian special interest groups. We have references to God on our money, in the pledge to our flag, and in several patriotic songs. The laws of the land often reflect oppressive Christian moral strictures that have no place in a secular code of law in a secular government. The first president Bush expressed the hatred and bigotry of many people in the US when he said during an interview, in response to the question: I could go on, but I think my point is made.You, being a Christian, probably don't even notice. But I do.

Well, you can certainly choose to behave like a troll and a bully, CS, but remember that I am also an Admin.

I don't make a habit out of defending Bush. But there is a point to be made; if God does exist then we as a nation ARE under God, whether we believe in Him or not. I do think that atheist are citizens, since there are no requirements that you must believe in God to enter our ports, or must subsequently abandon your own faith on arriving. Citizenship involves obeying Laws. Patriotism is a bit different. It involves espousing of an ideal. If a nation sets forth an ideal which must at some point be defended, only those who truly hold that ideal in their hearts can defend it without force.I have argued this point from another standpoint, that of Catholicism. Folks hate being threatened with excommunication. In reality there is no threat. We are all free to disagree with any law of the church, or any doctrine. But then we are not entirely in the church, are we? We have excommunicated ourselves, and the 'threat' is just a cautionary statement to those who are unaware of the implications of their decision.If you are a citizen, you are. Only an individual knows to what extent their patriotism goes. Not sure what you mean here. I am definitely aware of the references to God which you have mentioned above, and I have definitely spent some amount of my life dwelling on them. And I certainly have noticed the lack of correlation between the expressed 'christian' sentiments and the personal faith of our founding fathers.Let's just boil it down to this; I am Catholic, I live in a neighborhood almost entirely comprised of Orthodox Russians, Hassidic Jews, and Hindus. I have no desire to escape it or fear of being 'awash' with a predominate culture. Bigotry is only a state of mind, and I sense it comes from all sides. Perhaps Bush was right to say that atheists are not patriotic?Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

If you are going to cite me as an authority or source, please try to, at the very least, reflect what I would say. I would NEVER, I hope, make such an assertion as you have attributed to me. Utter nonsense.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Then you should stop before you put foot in mouth like:

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But there is a point to be made; if God does exist then we as a nation ARE under God, whether we believe in Him or not

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Where in the Constitution is your god mention (hint no god is mentioned). where do you get of telling people whether they believe in something they still have to follow this imaginary things rules. You in just this short little sentence showed your intolerance of others, very unAmerican! It is this type of attitude that perpetuated the genocide of my ancestors. You again espouse intolerance to others that do not have your same type of superstition or have no superstition at all. If your trying to equivocate a religious person being ex-communicated with an American being stripped of his citizenship for not believing in your god, that would show your lack of knowledge of the laws of the vary country you preface to love and honor. I live in the south, not some liberal northern city. Come on down, if you really want to find out what bigotry is really like. I have two honorable discharges for serving my country, do you even have one to show us your patriotic or talking out the side of your mouth.

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Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.

Since when? And I am asking that rhetorical question in a non-rhetorical manner.I may have the sequence turned about a bit, operating as I am from memory, but the years are correct:
1954 -- act of Congress inserts the words "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance.
1955 -- act of Congress requires that the words "in God we trust" be placed on all our money.
1956 -- act of Congress dumps our National Motto since 1776, "E Pluribus Unum", in favor of the sectarian religious "In God We Trust".BTW, isn't the "mark of the Beast" supposed to be placed on all the money? Hmmm. Yes, I remember that. Little did we know at the time that that was the moderate Bush.Though I never did understand his going on and on about "The New World Order", which sounded like something that fundamentalists would point to as a sign of the End Times.BTW, this atheist will soon have completed 30 years of military service to this country and be looking forward to five more years of service before being forced to retire due to age.

Ceratinly I will not cite you in future if I am capable of such misrepresentation.I am trying to interpret your disambiguation of Law and Morality. Perhaps my understanding of what you meant is flawed. my apologies.My point is that having citizenship does not automatically mean having patriotism, or following the law of the land does not force a person to admire the morality of a law.

If there is a god/s, we are under him/her/it/them. Is that better?
It has nothing to do with putting my foot anywhere, or with G. Bush. Hint; I never mentioned a constitution or any imaginary things rules, whatever they are. In this short little paragraph you have showed your lack of comprehension and ability to add things into the conversation in a moment of passion. OK, I said;"If a nation sets forth an ideal which must at some point be defended, only those who truly hold that ideal in their hearts can defend it without force."I am forced to think you are simply not understanding me. I will put it in new words for you; If a nation promotes a religion, and they ask you to fight in the name of that religion, would you do it?Would it be more patriotic to go war, or to refuse? It would probably be more noble to refuse, but I think patriotism implies loving the ideals of your country. Perhaps loving the potential of one's country is enough to qualify.I have no idea how this relates to genocide. Perhaps you would connect the dots? Since I expressly mentioned that our country has no rules of citizenship contigent on worship of any God, much less 'my' God, then it would be highly unlikely that I equivocated or even mentioned a stripping of citizenship. I said, again, that whether or not a person is a citizen, only they personally can determine if they are patrioticly inclined. It is totally possible to hate every aspect of this country and maintain citizenship, but probably not patriotism. Unless of course you feel patriotic about the purple mountains and fruited plains. I've been. I do not know what makes you think liberal northerners can't be bigoted. They just change their focus. First off, having a military record is not possible for everyone. I would like you to bear that in mind before you insult someone.
To answer your question, I never made any claim to patriotism nor any competition about who is more patriotic.If an athesit is bothered by the overly 'christian' aspects of this country, then maybe they will be left feeling a little less than patriotic about it all. Its personal.

Its not found in the Constitution, but it is found in the Declaration of Independence."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."What makes this line so great and so uniquely American is that it allows all faiths to believe as they do by using the term, "Creator." We have to remember that a major factor in the fight for sovereignty was that early Americans were fleeing religious persecution. Recognizing the rights of its citizens to worship freely without hindrance was a very important virtue in early colonial times. That in no way undermines the fact that the country itself was founded under Christian ideals. They just simply recognized that state sanctioned religion is a recipe for hate and disaster. Early Rome knew this and sought to respect the religious freedoms of others, presumably knowing that suppressing their faith beliefs would just cause a division among the people and they might rebel. Who are your ancestors? How did Anastasia espouse intolerance, especially when calling her views intolerant is, itself, an act of intolerance? Are you suggesting that people are stripped of their citizenship for not believing in the Judeo-Christian God? That would be absurd if so. Just ask the American atheists on the forum if they're citizenship has been revoked. I hate to break it to you, but bigotry exists everywhere. The most you can do is bridge gaps and teach others to do the same. Crying over spilled milk is pointless. Just be apart of the solution. Its pretty hard to get an other than honorable discharge, so that's not really a reflection of how patriotic someone is. Aside from which, while I would agree that the military is mostly comprised of nationalists, that isn't the rule. Atheists are in the military too, of course. I've met quite a few of them in my time. In either case, thank you for serving your your country.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

The point is, anastasia, that maybe you might give a break to us non-Christians who have to put up with nearly inescapable Christianity here in the US, including in our government, where it does not belong.It can get to feeling rather oppressive sometimes, especially around the holidays.

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We have to remember that a major factor in the fight for sovereignty was that early Americans were fleeing religious persecution.

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Are you talking about the Puritans, or the Founding Fathers here?

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Are you suggesting that people are stripped of their citizenship for not believing in the Judeo-Christian God? That would be absurd if so. Just ask the American atheists on the forum if they're citizenship has been revoked.

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The point is, Juggs, that Bush Sr., a US president, stated that American Athiests shouldn't be considered citizens.While I agree with you that it is absurd, Bush clearly didn't think there was anything absurd in the least about such an idea.I've listened to the people who called in to C-SPAN when the man who wanted to get "under god" removed from the pledge was a guest. Many of them vehemently told him to get out of America, and consistently proclimed that Athiests shouldn't have any rights, and even that Athiests should be imprisoned.As it is, I am very careful to whom I reveal that I don't believe in any supernatural god/s. Most of my family doesn't even know.Nobody's had their US citizenship revoked because they are black, but that doesn't mean there isn't systematic racism and persecution and oppression.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

No. Arbitrarily trying to force one belief over another is still wrong! No you did not. That seems to be the problem with you, you want to ignore the real law of the land and insert your book of myths. Since the US constitution does no promote any religion this question is moot. No, I understand you, When you said

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I do think that atheist are citizens, msg 50]

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This shows you have now placed yourself and your religious views above the laws of this nation. Did you not state

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I do think that atheist are citizens

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msg 50]I'm a citizen, if you do not think atheist are citizens then you are equivocating stripping me of my citizenship. It counts on the situation, I remember Vietnam do you? I'll type slower. Did you not state

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If a nation sets forth an ideal which must at some point be defended

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The ideal of manifest destiny perpetrated the most successfull act of genocide the world has ever known. Guess where and what religious group initiated it? Question , do you know what my avatar is about? Never said you can't, said if you want to see bigotry taking to the extreme come to the south. They use to have clauses when you purchased houses down here that it never could be resold to minorities or jews. Alabama took till 2000 to eradicate laws against interracial marriages. I could go on. Did you not state

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I do think that atheist are citizens

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msg 50]

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If you are a citizen, you are. Only an individual knows to what extent their patriotism goes

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Would it be more patriotic to go war, or to refuse? It would probably be more noble to refuse, but I think patriotism implies loving the ideals of your country.

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The bold shows you think that one should defend the ideals of the country above the noble act of refusing to not fight for those ideals, right?It also shows the extent of patriotism if someone is willing to lay their life on the line or, like you, pay lip service to making statements about defending your country Poor anastasia, feeling persecuted. I don't feel threatened by you or christianity, it is you spouting of I do think that atheist are citizens I have never questioned your ability to be a citizen, just your lack of understanding of what is the law of this country ( the constitution ) and what is not ( your god and the bible).

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Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.

Oh stop. Seriously now, christians complain because there's not enough christmas, atheists complain becuase there's too much. Christians think morality is decreasing, atheists think christians are forcing their laws on them.As to your oppression, well, I wish I could help. No one should feel oppressed around the holidays. Since I am not in a position at this time to be able to give you a break myself, I will remember your intention the next time I am in church....jk