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Author Topic:   Deism in the Dock
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3655 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 181 of 270 (416235)
08-14-2007 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by DrJones*
08-14-2007 4:15 PM


Dr. Jones:
So in heaven we will be robots?

No no no... Robots don't get to choose to become robots. They never had a choice, to become or not to become robotic.

If my analogy (or my illustration that must be lacking something relevant to being equal to the real thing) is legitimate, then we get to choose.

This may turn out to be a theological nightmare, but I am moving forward with the analogy. let's all just keep in mind that it is an analogy; something to give us a flavor for the truth.

:rolleyes:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by DrJones*, posted 08-14-2007 4:15 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 14680
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 182 of 270 (416237)
08-14-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Rob
08-14-2007 8:19 PM


Rob writes:

He's not far at all, He's everywhere.

Do you understand any English at all? I didn't say anything about God being "far" or "anywhere".

I said you can't know what God thinks. You claim to know, but you don't know. You're either making it up or parroting what C. S. Lewis tells you. But you don't know.

Well, then I'm glad I'm not a deist!

I'm sure the deists are glad too.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 8:19 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 10:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3655 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 183 of 270 (416245)
08-14-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Chiroptera
08-14-2007 4:40 PM


Chiroptera:
Okay, so God will remove the ability to sin. So either lacking having the ability to sin does not make people robots (like crashfrog is saying), or God really doesn't mind it if people are robots.

Either way, God could have arranged it from the beginning so that people couldn't sin. It will be exactly what God is going to arrange anyway, except with far fewer people in hell.

No... I think Crash was right (I wasn't listening properly to him). But... god couldn't have arranged it that way from the beginning, because then we would be robots. Choosing to become a robot, is different than being one.

There's something lacking in the analysis, but I can't visualize it yet. The Bible says we are slaves to sin, and that those in Christ are slaves to righteousness. So in a sense this whole issue brings up the age old free-will vs preordained problem. Elsewhwere the dilemma is resolved between time and eternity. But I do not know exactly how to apply that resolution here...

I'll keep praying and thinking about it.

Perhaps if I re-read Lewis' 'Mere Christianity' which was where I first saw the concept elaborated, I could get it clearer. But I gave my last copy away some time ago, so it will have to wait. I don't recall him taking it this deep though... You folks have asked some very intelligent and critical questions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Chiroptera, posted 08-14-2007 4:40 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3655 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 184 of 270 (416247)
08-14-2007 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by ringo
08-14-2007 8:40 PM


Ringo:
Do you understand any English at all? I didn't say anything about God being "far" or "anywhere".

I have a short memory too Ringo, so I'll give you a pass...

Ringo: www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=33&t=41&m=180#177 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=33&t=41&m=180#177">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=33&t=41&m=180#177

If He is so far above you, there can be no meaningful revelation.

Ringo:

I said you can't know what God thinks. You claim to know, but you don't know. You're either making it up or parroting what C. S. Lewis tells you. But you don't know.

Are you making it up? Or are you parroting what youve heard from some pop/sophist/philosopher?

So, why is it that you can know reality, and I can't?

Of course I know reality... I exist in Him.

You do know English don't you? Etymology and all?

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/god

Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

So if there is no God, then how could you know that I don't know Him? How could you know that I don't know Him, since you would have to know God in order to know that?

Kant has hurt you deeply... as well as many others.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 08-14-2007 8:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by ringo, posted 08-14-2007 10:33 PM Rob has responded
 Message 200 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2007 2:29 PM Rob has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14680
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 185 of 270 (416248)
08-14-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Rob
08-14-2007 10:21 PM


Rob writes:

I have a short memory too Ringo, so I'll give you a pass...

If He is so far above you, there can be no meaningful revelation.

"Above you" is not a location.

Or are you parroting what youve heard from some pop/sophist/philosopher?

I don't read philosophy, popular or otherwise.

Are you making it up?

I'm thinking it through.

So, why is it that you can know reality, and I can't?

Again, I didn't say that. I said, again, that you can't know what God thinks. You don't know reality because you're too busy tripping yourself up with silly word games.

So if there is no God, then how could you know that I don't know Him?

Please just try to pay attention for once. I have never said that there is no God.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 10:21 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 1:52 AM ringo has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1706
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 186 of 270 (416260)
08-14-2007 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Rob
08-14-2007 8:28 PM


So you retract your earlier claim that "god" will remove our ability to sin when we're in heaven.


Live every week like it's Shark Week!
Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 8:28 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 270 (416274)
08-15-2007 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Rob
08-14-2007 12:59 PM


Re: playing God's advocate for you...
We're getting way off-topic, I think. I still don't think you've responded meaningfully to my arguments.

With an attitude like yours, you're likely to take justice into your own hands if your not careful.

I'm not angry. Seriously, I'm not an angry person at all. The things that go on in this world offend the conscience of all decent people - but like most normal people, I can deal with that. What are we, teenagers?

I don't feel any sense of injustice that God allows these things - because I don't believe in a God that can prevent them. It would be like being angry at the wind for blowing.

The anger you're sensing isn't coming from me. I suspect it's the anger you feel deep inside at a God who allows such injustice - the anger you can't ever admit to feeling. I don't expect you to do anything but disagree, of course.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 12:59 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 12:50 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3655 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 188 of 270 (416281)
08-15-2007 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by DrJones*
08-14-2007 11:14 PM


Dr.Jones:
So you retract your earlier claim that "god" will remove our ability to sin when we're in heaven.

Yes, that is correct.

I was positioning the argument incorrectly. We do have an ability to sin now. In fact, we cannot stop doing it. Makes me wonder if we have a choice even now...

He offers us the chance to be free from it, if we want. And to be forgiven for what occurs now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by DrJones*, posted 08-14-2007 11:14 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3655 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 189 of 270 (416283)
08-15-2007 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by crashfrog
08-15-2007 12:01 AM


Re: playing God's advocate for you...
Crash :
I'm not angry...

...The anger you're sensing isn't coming from me. I suspect it's the anger you feel deep inside at a God who allows such injustice - the anger you can't ever admit to feeling. I don't expect you to do anything but disagree, of course.

I have already admitted that I am angry at times. Remember? that is why I said, 'I know an angry man when I see one, because I am argry myself.'

It kind of goes hand in hand with Lewis' comment that he knows men, because he is a man. It has it's limitations of course...

In fact, I am attending 'anger and other life issues' meetings at our church on monday nights. I am finding it very useful in letting go of some things. But it took me a long time to admit it,

I apologize for even bringing that up. If you are angry, it does no good to ask you like I did. You wouldn't even be conscious of it, and it is the kind of information that is volunteered, not coerced.

We are very blind to our own disfuntions. And it is traumatic to realize the reality. But it must be done if we are to see beyond our own self imposed prisons of perception. Lot's of hurt, and lot's of defense mechanisms bar the door. Takes a lot of love and a lot of thought to work through all of that icky 'real' stuff.

Sorry, not trying to turn this into an AA type meeting or anything...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by crashfrog, posted 08-15-2007 12:01 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3655 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 190 of 270 (416296)
08-15-2007 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by ringo
08-14-2007 10:33 PM


Ringo:[qs]Again, I didn't say that. I said, again, that you can't know what God thinks. You don't know reality because you're too busy tripping yourself up with silly word games.

Ok... I had to go back and read what you said. thought you were moving the goal-posts retroactively. But I think we misunderstood each other... Imagine that!

Here is what you originally said in this message: www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=33&t=41&m=180#173 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=33&t=41&m=180#173">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=33&t=41&m=180#173 Ringo:

The thing is, you can't know that "He has very good reasons". You can't know that "He doesn't want to condemn too hastily". You can't know that "He knows exactly what He is doing".

You are equating knowing God's thoughts with His nature. And there is simmilarity I'll grant that. But I do know His nature. He has revealed Himself through His Son. And His Son fullfilled what the Bible told us his nature was.

Furthermore, I have seen Him move in my own life. I have seen the radical transformation of my own mind, and the simultaneous and sudden understanding of the scriptures. It all coalesces beautifully. It is either the greatest ancient trick of hypnosis and mind control, or simply what it claims to be. Or I could be utterly mad...

Trust me, I have questioned all of the above many times. I even wished it wasn't true so I wouldn't feel the need to tell others about it so forcefully. Because as I do so, all of my greatest weaknesses are exposed before your very eyes.

The irony (if you can call it that)... is that my only motivation for healing whatever dysfunctions and hurt I suffer from, has come not from wanting to do it. But because I must, if I am to become an effective witness. And in hindsight, I realize that that motivationis not selfish, but for the sake of others. And then I think, 'woah!... Lord, you truely are the genius'!

I'm just the fool next door. If I have even once offered anything that touches you, thank God not me.

And that's no phoney baloney humility, you boys know me well enough...I am not humble!. But through some mystery of grace, God has humbled me.

I'll tell you this much.. if I was thinking my own thoughts that arise in my own imagination, I would be seriously offended at your lack of respect for the subjects at EVC and for almost molesting me continually with word games and infintie skepticism.

But if you haven't noticed (as I have) I don't really care about what you think of me anymore. In fact, you all are often very right about me.

But your way off base about God.

Ringo:

"Above you" is not a location
.

I'll resist using the laughing smile from the legend. Oh I can't help it... :laugh:

What is it then?

And please don't say it's a prepositional phrase, because that would indicate position (ie. location, relative to me).

I'll say one more thing... being an omnipresent being, God's position is difficult to ascertain. He's like a photon; some particle that can also be a wave and in more than one place at the same time, if you can even call it a place (or space). Which is intriguing since Jesus claimed to be 'the light' of the world. And even way back in the Old Testament, God was called our light.

You know how much I like Lewis... He said that 'God is like the sun, you can't look at It. But without it you cannot see anything'.

What light is to the physical, God is to our ability to accurately see reality beyond the physical.

Ringo:


Take 1. I don't read philosophy, popular or otherwise.

Take 2. I'm thinking it through.

Thinking is what philosophy is Ringo. :rolleyes:

Everything anyone says or writes is ultimately promoting or criticizing a philosophy or 'worldview' of life (reality). Since you have read... you have read philosophy.

Once we first realize that that's what we, and everyone else is doing, all of our thinking starts progressing very rapidly.

And, after consulting my Merriam-Websters, Philosophy is both theorizing and theology which I found to be particularly tantilizing.

Ringo:

Please just try to pay attention for once. I have never said that there is no God.

When you say I can't know Him, I am afraid you did... You know Him too, you just don't yet recognize Him or His voice for what it is.

I know God because I know His nature. That doesn't mean I can mind read Him. I'd explode if I could. My cup hath runneth over on many occasions. Revelation is often overwhelming when it occurs. And oh how I long for it...

I know you can't believe Him till you see it. So ask Him to see it. Faith first, eyes open later. Ask and you shall receive.

As for me, I know Him. But you don't know that I don't. I have told you plainly but you do not believe me.

Truth and lies can both be believed... but only the truth can be known.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by ringo, posted 08-14-2007 10:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 08-15-2007 2:50 AM Rob has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14680
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 191 of 270 (416302)
08-15-2007 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Rob
08-15-2007 1:52 AM


Rob writes:

Truth and lies can both be believed... but only the truth can be known.

Foolish people believe lies and think they know the truth. The wise know how little they know.

Now, the topic is deism. Keep your bargain-basement theology to yourself.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 1:52 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 10:16 AM ringo has responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 192 of 270 (416309)
08-15-2007 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Rob
08-12-2007 11:42 AM


Re: 'Marry me or I'll shoot'
Rob:

It seems that you are the one flinging arrows of condemnation Archer...

Not at all. I merely used the words 'everlasting torture' to describe everlasting torture. That is the doctrine.

As you know, because you take it as a given in your next statement:

The 'everlasting torture' is a state of being that we are already in.

This is fantasy.

If anything of the sort were true, we would see a correlation in the world between those people who are happy and who profess Christianity, and between those who feel miserable and who profess any other belief.

This is not, in reality, what we find. We find that people who hold other beliefs are as likely to be happy, well adjusted, kind, truthful, and content as Christians are, and perhaps even more so.

And that is something we must understand

The idea will be easier to 'understand' once it is shown to be something more than a sectarian myth.

In your opinion, what would [the Judeo-Christian] God have to do to prove His love to you?

Dropping the gun would be a start.

____


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Rob, posted 08-12-2007 11:42 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 10:33 AM Archer Opteryx has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3655 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 193 of 270 (416351)
08-15-2007 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by ringo
08-15-2007 2:50 AM


Ringo:
Foolish people believe lies and think they know the truth.

You just made an assertion Ringo. You just posited a truth claim. You stated an absolute...

Hello?

Ok... fine Ringo.... so do you believe what you just said or know it?

My oberservations and questions are not word games Ringo... They are meant to show that you appear to be unconscious of what it is you are saying.

Can we know the truth or not? If so how?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 08-15-2007 2:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 08-15-2007 2:30 PM Rob has responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3655 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 194 of 270 (416352)
08-15-2007 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Archer Opteryx
08-15-2007 4:18 AM


Re: 'Marry me or I'll shoot'
Archer:
If anything of the sort were true, we would see a correlation in the world between those people who are happy and who profess Christianity, and between those who feel miserable and who profess any other belief.

This is not, in reality, what we find. We find that people who hold other beliefs are as likely to be happy, well adjusted, kind, truthful, and content as Christians are, and perhaps even more so.

How can we be well adjusted in a world governed by the greedy and power-mad?

To become well adjusted in a gang of mobsters is not what I call well adjusted. But if happiness, and acceptance by whomever is the goal, then who cares what we become?

Christianity has very little to do with being happy. It is about joy. Happiness is temporary, joy comes from appriciating the big picture. They're quite distinct.

I've never been more unhappy in my life in temporal terms. It's one storm after another.

Think about it... Jesus starts speaking to a relatively huge crowd, and by the end of His message only twelve are left. Sometimes one would think He is trying to talk us out of following Him. He talks about the cost, being persecuted and hated, and that we may well die for our faith.

What in the name of reason does that have to do with happiness? It is a cross-bound journey. It is the truth, not some pie in the sky by and by when I die.

There is a great deal you do not understand. And I am not claiming that I have all the answers. There is a great deal I do not yet understand either... but I know the one who does. And real answers take time to understand. They're real life lessons that produce enormous stress and struggle.

Archer:

Dropping the gun would be a start.

Your the one named 'Archer'.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-15-2007 4:18 AM Archer Opteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-15-2007 5:16 PM Rob has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19510
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 195 of 270 (416357)
08-15-2007 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
08-10-2007 12:12 AM


The exclusive nature of "monotheism"
Totally different views like... what? Like this?

God is one. God is three.

Sure, if that's what it was espousing. The Trinity, of course, is nothing like that. God is one. The one God has triune characteristics composing of a singular God.

No gods, many gods. That's a contradiction that either will cancel one or both out.

There is some unfinished business with this matter of being able to accommodate contradictions within religious beliefs, one that has to do with the definition of "god" ...

god –noun1. God
- a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
- b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.

Thus a god is "2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes," -- or rather than any being of supernatural powers is a god, by definition.

This is the definition used for all the vast and numerous pantheons of gods, such as Greek, Roman, Norse, etcetera.

According to the strict interpretation of the bible all angels and demons have supernatural powers: thus they are all gods by definition, and literalist Christianity is faaaaar from being a "monotheistic" religion ...

mon·o·the·ism –nounthe doctrine or belief that there is only one God.

So I can repeat what Archer said before:

Message 33
Both can. Much depends on what one understands by deity.

God is one. God is three.

All in the definition, you see.

God is one. God is three. God is ten thousand.

All in the definition, you see, and with the definition of god used in other pantheistic religions to unmask the pantheonic element in Christianity we now see belief in thousands of gods --- or are they all one?

Conversely if one can believe in all these christian gods with no qualms, then what is the difference adding a few others into the mix? Perhaps they are just the same gods by different names.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : subtitle to differentiate it from the "Gospel of Rob" posts

Edited by RAZD, : pantheonic in place of pantheistic per Mod.


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This message is a reply to:
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