Should those of religious faith be allowed to run this country?

What about at Virginia Military Institute? I know two people that went there, I wonder if their professor's opinions were biased.EDIT: Also,Abilene Christian University
Texas Christian University
LCU: Lubbock Christian University
Oklahoma Christian University | The World Awaits Your Story
http://www.mcu.edu/
http://www.hcu.edu/etc. etc. etc.What would happen if I go to these schools and spew out my "leftist nonsense" and "science jargon" huh?This message has been edited by dsv, Wednesday, June 08, 2005 04:46 PM

How can you possibly know whether or not I'd be convinced?Your post just lists isolated examples.Look, here is what evidence would look like.It would compile the numbers of incidents where students were intimidated or failed for their view points. It would compare these numbers with the numbers of classes being taught; it would compare the numbers of courses in which these incidents occurred with the number of courses that are being taught. This is to get an idea of the size of the problem.It will present the percentage of professor who are "problem teachers" and the percentage of "problem universities".It will present correlations of these incidents with the political views of the instructors and the political views of the students. It will compare the numbers with the percentage of professors who are "liberals" verses those who are "conservatives" -- to establish if the incidents are due to "liberal" bias, or just an abuse of power that all politically inclined professors are prone to.It will also discuss the reviews and actions taken by the universities, including the evidence and testimony presented at the review process. This is to establish whether the complaints tend to have merit and, if so, whether the universities' procedures are adequate to deal with the problem.I don't understand what your concerns are. If this is truly a problem, then there should be evidence for it beyond a few incidents. There should be statistically significant number of events. If this evidence exists, why don't you just present it and see what my reaction is?

No one has the kind of evidence you demand. No such stats are kept. Universities do not release such information, and may not even record it statistically. Moreover, very few students, given their age, given that some are influenced uncritically, and given their principle concern about marks, would either notice or make an issue of it when they do.The bottom line is that the bill is neutral, and no one has good reason to object to a set of principles being legislated. Were that so, then the American Bill of Rights is unecessary until proven otherwise.

Oh, get real. I'm intimately familiar with coursework in three different universities around the country and this has never happened. The only instance of this I could imagine would be where one of you religious conservatives gets their panties in a knot when some professor notes that your "religious or political opinion" is actually a verifiable statement counterindicated by the facts.You may take it as political opinion that Republican presidents are better for the economy. Prepare to get an F in my class when I demonstrate factually that this is not the case.Like I said it's no secret why your ilk finds this "bill of rights" so attractive - it allows you to invent your own facts and insist on their dissemination in the classroom under the guise of "political opinion."

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No one has the kind of evidence you demand.

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Then there is no reason to think that there is a problem.--

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The bottom line is that the bill is neutral, and no one has good reason to object to a set of principles being legislated.

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The principals are fine, and mechanisms are already in place to deal with problems. Your posts themselves admit that there is not reason to believe that there is a problem that needs correcting. Therefore, it is very unwise to pass legislation that will give any quack the ability to "get even" with a professor or college just because her feelings got hurt.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree: But there is a problem, a serious one. Fortunately, the bill is taking off and variances of it will be legislated in several states. Universities are taking note, and, in some cases, beginning to tread much more carefully. In fact, that so many leftists obect to it, but not conservatives, is further evidence of its need: those who hold a monopoly don't want to see it threatened. Just as the leftist mainstream press is undergoing a crisis as its monopoly (and credibility) has been sorely challenged, so are the leftist mainstream faculties.

First off, let me just say that I am not christian.But, if I came up to you and asked you if I could help you destroy all that you hate, would you assume that you had a lot of hate in you? Well, I was really just addressing what this one guy said, as if he were speaking for all of Islam. He was trying to say that Christians and Muslims are allies because they hate the same things and vow to destroy those things they mutally hate, or somehting to that effect.I think it's funny that the guy said:
"I hold out against anything that displeases them."
and " Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate."since lately Christians in the US have been displeased with and hating Muslims.

It's really sad. But that's certainly not the viewpoint of all Christians. No problem. Again, not without knowing the context that was involved. But at the time, Christians, Jews and Muslims were facing some pretty serious challenges. He certainly could speak for all of Islam, he was the founder and prophet. But there is also the issue of translation where the word translated as hate can also be translated as despise or fear or feel threatened by. It was more of a statement of alliance, that your enemies will be my enemies. At the time it was made it was considered as a mutual aid treaty.We're getting way afield in this but it's an interesting period of history and perhaps if you're interested, you can start a thread on it?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, that's evidence of its bias. If the bill were as balanced as you say, then there would be criticism from both the left and right.Look, our universities and colleges are regarded as the best in the world, bar none. The education you experience at this nation's institutions of higher learning are the standard by which others are measured. Why muck around with the best?Furthermore, why is it bad for professors to have a leftist bias? Did you ever consider that perhaps that's an indication of how wrong rightist ideas are? Why is it that the persons in occupations where you would expect them to be the best-informed - librarians, journalists, professors, teachers, etc - always lean so far to the left? Don't you think that's an indication that the ideas of the right are based on ignorance?Well, no, of course you don't. It's plenty obvious to the rest of us, though.

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If the bill were as balanced as you say, then there would be criticism from both the left and right.

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Actually, I think if this bill was well-balanced then there would be plenty of support from both left and right.I'm not sure that there isn't criticism from the conservatives that are actually in academic circles. The only support I have seen for these laws are outside academia.

OH!!!I didn't realize that these were the words of Mohammed!!Ok, it all makes sense now. I thought this was something that someone recently said. Maybe it's the coloration of this board, I tend to miss a lot here. Eh, o well... But really, why take the negative route?
Why not say that we will help them in everything that they love?I think the negative way is more pragmatic.
That way you are only allies under duress.
You don't have to help raise every barn, but you'll help if the barn is being raided, makes sense I guess.

Unnecessary legislation is very dangerous and it is suprising that a conservative would be in support of such a thing. Maybe you could answer the question that Faith has yet to tackle starting here: Message 238It is not only a question of need but also of motive especially in the absence of evidenced need.My opinion is that the govn't needs to recognize the importance of and keep its nose out of academia. That is how we have gotten where we are and why fix it if it ain't demonstrably broke.Then again you and Faith might actually post some evidence. I know you said before that such statistics don't exist but isn't that in and of itself telling? Why should we be passing legislation without thinking about if there is really a problem? Should some studies be commissioned and we, God forbid, think about the issue carefully and logically before we call for a vote?I don't think that any of the liberals here have any specific problem ONLY with the language of the bill. You need to look at it in the context in which it is being introduced, the reason it is being introduced, the people who are introducing it, and the speed and lack of objective information used to support it. Taken in this light, the legislation "fails the common sense test" as good ol'e Tal would put it. Probably some of the only wise words that I have heard that brave soul ever say.{ABE}
Fixed some spelling and suchThis message has been edited by Jazzns, 06-08-2005 08:44 PM

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FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

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Then again you and Faith might actually post some evidence. I know you said before that such statistics don't exist but isn't that in and of itself telling?

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What I find funny about all of this is that if the constant promotion of an opinion without supporting evidence is typical of conservative "scholarship" then it becomes obvious why conservatives are so under-represented in our universities.I doubt, though, that Faith or CanadianSteve can see the humor.

Unless it's true that the left has been violating its perfectly neutral, egalitarian and thoroughly liberal principles, and in fact the left's paranoia about it sure does suggest that's the case.

Sometimes its not paranoia. Sometimes they really are out to get you. When the current president has to re-affirm, has to come out and actually say that, yes, atheists are still citizens, that suggests to me that, indeed, people like you are out to get people like me.Naturally you're starting at the schools; what really gets me is that for two decades Republicans and conservatives ridiculed education and educators. Well, big surprise, you and your ideas got left behind on the campus. And now you and your ilk are complaining about it?Man does your side whine, or what? Shameless.