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Author Topic:   Origins of the Judeo-Christian god and religion
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 256 of 282 (309771)
05-06-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Faith
05-06-2006 4:51 PM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
What agenda? The one you're defending maybe. Or jar's. To judge by my marginal notes. Not my agenda. You jumped to a wrong conclusion about the book and the review of it too. Reread it. You missed the boat.
the review posted specifically says that it's not aimed at defending the agenda you seem think i have. if you're getting that out of it, perhaps you should re-read what i said about irony.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 4:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 282 (309780)
05-06-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 5:16 PM


some of the gods but no Yah
By the way, Arach, since the various gods of the various cultures are listed in the index of this book, such as El, Enlil, Asherah or Ashtoreth, Mithra, Marduk, Zeus, Tammuz, Nabu, just to pick a few at random, I looked to see if a Yah or Yaw were also there. It's not. What's your source for this supposed god in the Egyptian (or some other?) pantheon again?
{abe: The more I read in the book the more it strikes me how my notes complain about it. Clearly it's a liberal production. But it's not short on scholarship, that's for sure, well researched, well documented.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2006 06:06 PM

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 258 of 282 (309785)
05-06-2006 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
05-06-2006 6:02 PM


Re: some of the gods but no Yah
By the way, Arach, since the various gods of the various cultures are listed in the index of this book, such as El, Enlil, Asherah or Ashtoreth, Mithra, Marduk, Zeus, Tammuz, Nabu, just to pick a few at random, I looked to see if a Yah or Yaw were also there. It's not.
then it's missing something, and it's lying by way of omission. look under "yam." yah/yaw was renamed yam when he was adopted as il's son.
What's your source for this supposed god in the Egyptian (or some other?) pantheon again?
it's usually translaterated as "iah" in english. but the egyptian point was meant to be silly, not serious. there is no relation between the egyptian moon gods (plural) and yahweh.


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 Message 257 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 6:02 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 259 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 6:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 282 (309800)
05-06-2006 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 6:14 PM


Yamm
OK, here's what it says about Yamm, pages 140-141.
Finegan, Myth & Mystery writes:
The mythology concerning Baal is found in some eight large tablets and a number of fragments. Because of damage there are gaps in the narrative, and the sequence of events is not beyond question. Nevertheless three major episodes are recognizable: the conflict of Baal with the god Yamm (Sea); the building of a palace for Baal; and the conflict of Baal with the god Mot (Death).
In the first episode, Yamm, son of El, whose name, like the related word in Hebrew, means Sea* and who is called by the parallel titles 'Prince Sea' and 'Judge River,' demands of the assembly of the gods that Baal and his powers be delivered over to him, and El agrees that Baal shall be the servant of Yamm. Kotha wa-Khasis, however, the craftsman of the gods, whose name means something like 'skilful and clever,' provides Baal with two clubs and promises that Baal will be able to smite his enemy and take his own 'eternal kingdom' and 'everlasting dominion.' Thereupon Baal does battle with Yamm and is vicotrious. Henceforward Yamm is evidently confined to his proper realm, the seas, while Baal is indeed the lord of the earth. In other words the forces of chaos typified by the ocean have been brought under control and order established in the world.
The goddess Ashtoreth is mentioned in the account, but the text is so fragmentary that it is not possible to know what role she played. Although named frequently in Old Testament references to Canaanite religion, Ashtoreth appears only a few times in the Ugaritic texts, in contrast with the numerous appearances of Asherah, which gives some support to the theory that Ashtoreth and Asherah are one and the same.
On one hand, the victory of Baal over Yamm is reminiscent of th victory of Marduk over Tiamat as the unruly primeval ocean in Mesopotamian myth. On the other hand there is something of the same theme of the restriction of the might of the sea in biblical language: the Lord 'by his power . . . stilled the sea' (Job 26:12); he prescribed bounds for the sea, saying 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed (Job 38:10-11).'
*I looked up "sea" in the Concordance and it is indeed "yam" in the Hebrew.
That, by the way, is the only section of the book where Yamm is mentioned.
I see no connection whatever with Yahweh intended or implied.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2006 07:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 6:14 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 9:47 PM Faith has replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 260 of 282 (309842)
05-06-2006 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
05-06-2006 1:25 AM


That's the difference
I don't think these things because I believe; I believe because I'm convinced they are true.
But there's no convincing anyone who sees things the other way around. And this thread was originally intended to be about extra-Biblical information.
The difference is that many (like myself) are willing to change beliefs and opinions if new and convincing evidence is presented. While others will belief things that are obviously false (like a young earth or global flood) and not only have no evidence, but have a ton of evidence against them.
But this doesn't sound like the topic... so I apologize

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 Message 218 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 1:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 261 of 282 (309852)
05-06-2006 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
05-06-2006 6:37 PM


Re: Yamm
I see no connection whatever with Yahweh intended or implied.
cause he didn't bring it up the good stuff. look closer:
quote:
On one hand, the victory of Baal over Yamm is reminiscent of th victory of Marduk over Tiamat as the unruly primeval ocean in Mesopotamian myth.
quote:
Gen 1:21 And God created great serpents, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
quote:
Psa 74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, [and] gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
genesis 1 describes creation out of water, and god making order from chaos. this is the marduk and tiamat myth. granted, he does bring up the other similarity:
quote:
On the other hand there is something of the same theme of the restriction of the might of the sea in biblical language: the Lord 'by his power . . . stilled the sea' (Job 26:12); he prescribed bounds for the sea, saying 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed (Job 38:10-11).'
he also neglected to mention that yam's name was also yah.
*I looked up "sea" in the Concordance and it is indeed "yam" in the Hebrew.
or sometimes "beach." but that's only because you say you're going to the sea, and the strip of sand is implied (and indeed nothing special to the hebrews lol).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 6:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 05-07-2006 2:15 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 282 (309853)
05-06-2006 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by lfen
05-06-2006 4:04 PM


Re: Personal Attacks Off Topic
Ifen writes:
As long as it fits his pre judgements there is no evidence too flimsy or riduculous for him and on the other hand he will bend, cut, and mutilate any argument to get it to fit his foregone conclusion. In short Buz knows what he knows. Knows how to repeat it ad nauseum over the course of years. That is sum total his concept of evidence, logic, and argument.
Personally attacks are off topic here and everywhere, the last I heard. The same could be said about some of you people, but I have the decency and enough regard for Forum Guidelines to abstain from these personal attacks. Please stick to attacking the issues and not the messenger. Where were you when the evidence of the Chariot wheels and corroborating evidence was discussed? If you were there, you nor anyone else certainly did not empirically debunk the substantial evidence presented on that topic by me, Lysimachus and others.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 263 of 282 (309911)
05-07-2006 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 9:47 PM


Re: Yamm
Not seeing anything from your post that connects "Yamm" to "Yahweh." If an alternate for "Yamm" is "Yah" it would still mean "Sea" not "I AM" and "Hayah" in Hebrew is the root "to be" and "being" which is what "Yahweh" derives from. Nothing to do with seas and beaches.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 9:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by arachnophilia, posted 05-07-2006 7:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 264 of 282 (309914)
05-07-2006 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by arachnophilia
05-06-2006 2:26 PM


Re: The revisionist pattern
I read Gilgamesh years ago. Your attitude is abusive at this point.
The book I referred to so obviously does NOT have an agenda jsut from the little I've told you about it and the website posted that made use of it, the dishonesty you are imputing to me is clearly yours. "Pagan" Is the scholarly term for all such religions. You are making a fool of yourself, but in present company probably nobody notices except me so you're safe.
would you trust someone to tell you all about the entire history of christianity and judaism in one chapter of one book written to explain why islam is superior?
Once again, your ignorance is hanging out. The book treats all the religions objectively, it doesn't say one word anywhere in it that suggests Christianity is superior (although since it IS superior I wouldn't hold that against it if it did). But it doesn't say any such thing, and as I've said over and over if it has an agenda at all it is the same agenda as this thread has, to reduce Christianity to all the other religions.
And yes, it is certainly possible to do an honest job of presenting the main features of any system of thought in a chapter. Its briefness says nothing against it.
I can't believe I'm having to argue this pathetic level of nonsense and take insults over it too.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-07-2006 02:38 AM

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 Message 239 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 2:26 PM arachnophilia has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 282 (309917)
05-07-2006 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by mike the wiz
05-06-2006 3:17 PM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
And there's a fallacy involved in this, the implication that if it predates it, it therefore influenced it.
Good observation.
(post-hoc).(The name of the fallacy for readers)
Thank you.
And this fallacy is what this whole bunch of nonsense rests on, nothing more than that.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-07-2006 02:52 AM

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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5009 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 266 of 282 (309927)
05-07-2006 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Faith
05-07-2006 2:51 AM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
faith writes:
And this fallacy is what this whole bunch of nonsense rests on, nothing more than that.
No. As far as I can see no-one has relied exclusively on a post-hoc relationship. As Arach has been constantly demonstrating, there is some linguistic and cultural evidence. This evidence is (at the very least) no less strong than that which you argued supported Allah's early incarnation as a moon god!
Your faith leads you to a double standard. This is what you can't seem to grasp.
All people of committed faith believe that their faith is the "right" one, so person of faith should expect to achieve universal consensus that their beliefs represent "facts".
This message has been edited by RickJB, 05-07-2006 06:40 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 05-07-2006 2:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 05-07-2006 12:16 PM RickJB has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 282 (309970)
05-07-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by RickJB
05-07-2006 6:29 AM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
And this fallacy is what this whole bunch of nonsense rests on, nothing more than that.
No. As far as I can see no-one has relied exclusively on a post-hoc relationship. As Arach has been constantly demonstrating, there is some linguistic and cultural evidence. This evidence is (at the very least) no less strong than that which you argued supported Allah's early incarnation as a moon god!
This is false. What I said was that there is historical evidence of Mohammed's actually really/personally/historically taking the existing pagan god and exhorting his followers to eliminate all others and worship this god as the eternal God. This is not the same kind of evidence as what others are putting up here. No direct hsitorical connection of any sort with the Biblical God has been made whatever. It's all post hoc reasoning. The linguistic and cultural "evidence" is only evidence if you accept the fallacy that what predated must influence. And the connection Arach has been trying to make with "Yam" is sheer nonsense.
I have no problem whatever with the linguistic and cultural facts as such. I expect the Biblical events to have occurred within a linguistic and cultural context. I expect to find similar terms. I even expect the terms to be used in order to communicate with people who have the dominant expectations concerning the various gods.
But I also know that the Bible is written for the express purpose of presenting to humanity the true Creator God who is above all those other gods {abe: has no connection whatever with any pagan god, no historical connection with the pagan gods of Abraham's family, etc}, and I believe this should be obvious to anyone who reads it on its own terms and in its own context instead of breaking it up into fragments.
And truly, your comments on my mental frame are out of order. Or shall I speculate in print about your inadequate mental frame, for certainly it is that.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-07-2006 12:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5009 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 268 of 282 (309977)
05-07-2006 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Faith
05-07-2006 12:16 PM


Re: POCM [Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth] site
faith writes:
But I also know that the Bible is written for the express purpose of presenting to humanity the true Creator God...
You don't "know" this at all - no one does. You believe it.
faith writes:
...this should be obvious to anyone who reads it on its own terms and in its own context instead of breaking it up into fragments.
Just because it's "obvious" to you doesn't mean it is for others. The Bible strikes me as no more or less divine than other sacred text.
faith writes:
And truly, your comments on my mental frame are out of order.
No they are not. I said nothing of your "mental frame". All I wanted to point out is that your personal faith does not equate to self-evident fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 05-07-2006 12:16 PM Faith has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 269 of 282 (310092)
05-07-2006 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
05-07-2006 2:15 AM


Re: Yamm
Not seeing anything from your post that connects "Yamm" to "Yahweh." If an alternate for "Yamm" is "Yah" it would still mean "Sea" not "I AM" and "Hayah" in Hebrew is the root "to be" and "being" which is what "Yahweh" derives from. Nothing to do with seas and beaches.
"to be" in hebrew is l'hyot. hayah is "is" or "was."
have you never heard a pun in english?
what's black and white and red (read) all over? the newspaper. the act of reading has nothing to do with the color red, does it? except that it sounds the same in one particular tense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 05-07-2006 2:15 AM Faith has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 270 of 282 (310095)
05-07-2006 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
05-07-2006 2:37 AM


Re: The revisionist pattern
I read Gilgamesh years ago. Your attitude is abusive at this point.
because you fail to see the obvious commonalities.
"Pagan" Is the scholarly term for all such religions.
"pagan" is a loaded term. it applies (technically) to non abrahamic religions. but since that case is ARGUABLE in mesopotamia, the use of it suggests the point the author is trying to make. the connotations it carries are worse than the technical reading.
Once again, your ignorance is hanging out. The book treats all the religions objectively, it doesn't say one word anywhere in it that suggests Christianity is superior
the word "pagan" suggests it.
(although since it IS superior I wouldn't hold that against it if it did)
how positive are you that you'd notice the subtle things? the bits positted as fact that are meant to imply superiority? it's already been demonstrated here that you can't keep fact and belief straight.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 05-07-2006 2:37 AM Faith has not replied

  
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