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Author Topic:   Basic and Remedial Fossil Identification
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 142 (330509)
07-10-2006 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
07-10-2006 3:58 PM


A good start Faith:
I just believe it makes no difference because their own special properties might have carried them to some separate resting place from their respective plants.
That's a good start Faith. Now all you need to do bring us the model of just exactly how the different properties of the mechanics of the alleged flood did that.
Higher, lower, what does it matter?
Well, way back near the beginning of this thread you agreed that in general, unless there are signs of disturbance, things that are lower in the geological column are older than things that are higher in the column.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 3:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 4:15 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 142 (330511)
07-10-2006 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Coragyps
07-10-2006 4:10 PM


Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
But that's precisely what you DON'T see. No grasses or grass pollen are ever seen in anything below the latest Cretaceous or the Triassic. And if you find grass, you'll find its pollen.
Whatever. I will think about grass and pollen when I get to it. Sorry I got sucked into this discussion.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 142 (330512)
07-10-2006 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
07-10-2006 4:11 PM


Re: A good start Faith:
Well, way back near the beginning of this thread you agreed that in general, unless there are signs of disturbance, things that are lower in the geological column are older than things that are higher in the column.
All that means is that the layers were deposited earlier or later than each other, in succession, probably over many months. It certainly doesn't mean that their contents had lived at different times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 07-10-2006 4:11 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 142 (330516)
07-10-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
07-10-2006 4:15 PM


Re: A good start Faith:
All that means is that the layers were deposited earlier or later than each other, in succession, probably over many months.
That's fine Faith, all you need to do is to present the model that explains how the tens of thousands of layers were laid down. It will be a difficult job but each individual layer can now be explained by the converntional theories. For Floodism to take hold it must do an even better job of explanation.
We await seeing the model.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 123 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 4:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2915 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 125 of 142 (330529)
07-10-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
07-10-2006 3:55 PM


Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
Many layers up from the first ferns but before the grasses conifers appear and are then found all the way up. Many layers later angiosperm trees appear and are then found all the way up.
Faith writes:
No reason this can't be explained physically.
Except if it can't. Which you don't, ever. So repeating this over and over as you do without following through with an actual credible physical explanation does not score any debating points.
The model has its merits but there's a lot of fudging going on (what makes a conifer less "complex" than other trees?), and the very disposition of things in layers at all is a huge strike against it.
The terminology doesn't really matter. Focusing on it is a red herring. The point is that the conifers occur in lower layers than angiosperm trees and the evolutionary model explains that quite well while the flood model does not. Focus on that.
How are fossils found in layers a "huge strike against" (the evolutionary model)? Organisms die and sometimes are captured in sediment layers and form fossils. It is the lack of fossils that YECs usually trumpet about until, unfortunately for them, the fossils show up. The presence of unique sets of fossils in multiple layers supports the evolutionary model because it can be explained as what would occur over a long period of time. On the other hand, one would expect many fewer layers for a flood model and the fossils should be much more jumbled up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 3:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 5:06 PM deerbreh has replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2915 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 126 of 142 (330539)
07-10-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
07-10-2006 4:13 PM


Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
But that's precisely what you DON'T see. No grasses or grass pollen are ever seen in anything below the latest Cretaceous or the Triassic. And if you find grass, you'll find its pollen.
Faith writes:
Whatever. I will think about grass and pollen when I get to it. Sorry I got sucked into this discussion.
"Whatever". That's not a convincing argument. And this is not the first time you have indicated you will "think about it later." Then somehow you often don't get back to it or you address it in a superficial way. How many times can you refuse to think about "an inconvenient truth" before you realize that the Flood model cannot explain the fossil evidence? As for the discussion, it is about fossils, and you started it, I believe. You don't get to ignore grass and grass pollen fossils just because they don't fit your Flood model.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 4:13 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 127 of 142 (330541)
07-10-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by deerbreh
07-10-2006 4:48 PM


Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
How are fossils found in layers a "huge strike against" (the evolutionary model)? Organisms die and sometimes are captured in sediment layers and form fossils.
Very very rarely, and not in the abundance and huge jumbled-up collections of so many that demonstrate a sudden mass death.
It is the lack of fossils that YECs usually trumpet about until, unfortunately for them, the fossils show up.
The paltry few fossils called "transitional" are hardly a problem for YECs. You need to have at least as many "transitionals" as "species" to support evolution and you don't. There's nothing in the fossil record at all that looks like a trying-out of some feature which one would think you'd have in abundance. Instead, you have complete functioning creatures.
The presence of unique sets of fossils in multiple layers supports the evolutionary model because it can be explained as what would occur over a long period of time.
The worldwide existence of layers containing discrete fossil collections simply makes no sense at all on a long-time scenario.
On the other hand, one would expect many fewer layers for a flood model and the fossils should be much more jumbled up.
Obviously that's not what happened. Layers is what happened. And water does in fact make layers. In discussions on this very site others have shown me how discrete deposits show up in stream beds for instance. A gigantic flood moving sediments to and fro could very well explain what we see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by deerbreh, posted 07-10-2006 4:48 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 128 of 142 (330555)
07-10-2006 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
07-10-2006 5:06 PM


Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
You need to have at least as many "transitionals" as "species" to support evolution and you don't.
Why would a transitional not be a species? Every organism is in a species. There are no organisms that aren't classified into a species. None whatsoever. It's a contradiction in terms.
Instead, you have complete functioning creatures.
Right. And every one of those fully functioning creatures is a transitional form.
"Transitional form" doesn't mean "half-assed monster." It means "organism that is the decendant of one species and the ancestor of another." The fossil record is chock-a-block with such organisms. To describe the number of them as "paltry" is either an ignorant mistake or a dishonest misrepresentation. There are, in fact, as many transitional fossils as there are fossils, because every species is in a constant state of transition.
The worldwide existence of layers containing discrete fossil collections simply makes no sense at all on a long-time scenario.
I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you. It is, unfortunately, the exact truth.

This message is a reply to:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2915 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 129 of 142 (330556)
07-10-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
07-10-2006 5:06 PM


Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
Arguing against old earth, Faith writes:
Very very rarely, and not in the abundance and huge jumbled-up collections (of fossils)of so many that demonstrate a sudden mass death.
But then goes on to argue,
The worldwide existence of layers containing discrete fossil collections simply makes no sense at all on a long-time scenario.
So which argument against old earth do you want to use, Faith, jumbled up collections of fossils or discrete fossil collections? The best one is the first one, which of course is, unfortunately for the Floodist, contrary to the facts, as this thread shows. The fossils are not jumbled up but rather collections of fossils characteristic to particular geological ages. Yes, you could say discrete.
In discussions on this very site others have shown me how discrete deposits show up in stream beds for instance.
Of course. Different deposition events over time will result in layers of deposits. That doesn't support a Flood model no matter how much you assert that it does.
A gigantic flood moving sediments to and fro could very well explain what we see.
Not hundreds and thousands of lithified layers cut through by rivers. No way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 5:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3917 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 130 of 142 (330595)
07-10-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
07-10-2006 5:06 PM


biostratigraphy
Worldwide stratifications and worldwide amazing abundance of fossils
Ok I see you are up to the point where we are ready to talk about the strata in better detail. When you refer to the Devonian or the Jurassic as "layers" you are getting a lot of feedback. This is because they aren't layers, they are arbitrary groupings of relative fossil positioning. Each of these "ages" or levels in the geological column is composed of millions of strata. They are the real layers we can investigate in the real world. The "eras" are something more like the periodic table, a convenient method of sumarizing all the facts that have come in about all the strata examined ever.
Each individual stratum represents a period of undisturbed natural solidification. Here a couple of examples of this kind of thing to help with the visualization, the two most common ways of stone forming naturally.
A volcano blows periodically, every 20-50 years let's say. Magma or lava or whatever you want to call it, rock that is so hot that it is a liquid, comes running down and settles in low-lying areas. It dries, it solidifies, it becomes solid ground, dust and tumbleweed blow across it, gophers come down from their trees and poop nuts on it, land hermit crabs scuttle about pretending to be rocks, and then finally one day, the volcano blows again. More hot liquid rock comes gushing down, settles and cools, solidifies. This second stratum of rock has its own characteristics and a layer of grit and bone and the occasional extremely flat hot gopher-crab crunch surprise between it and the previous layer.
Furthermore its shape conforms to on the bottom, and reduces on the top, whatever irregularities are found in the previous strata. Let's say there was a tyrannosaur out there minding his own business before the first eruption reduced him to hot giblets. That stratum of rock is going to have a big dino-steak-shaped irregularity at one point. The next eruption, the one that catches the gopher and the crab there in fragrante delecto, it is going to conform to this original tyrannosaurus lump on the bottom, but if theres enough lava you might not even see it on the top.
There's another easy way for rock to solidify though, which is for it to be dissolved in water. Let's say we are in a different part of the world where they don't have a volcano but they do have a rainy season and a dry season. The water washes down, with the sediments suspended in it, pools up, becomes still, evaporates, leaving a layer of precipitate. The sun bakes down, the gophers poop, the little trilobites dance in the moonlight. Solid ground arrives.
This part is critical because if the precipitate remains a powder it can't stratify properly, the next bit of wash will stir it all up again. It won't be a separate stratum if it doesn't fully solidify, in other words. But assuming it doesn't rain until next year and there's plenty of sunlight and "ancient superglue" (red dirt, poo) then it ought to be fine. The next layer of sediment forms a new stratum, this new stratum has all the same kinds of animals in it as the last one, but the next one won't because the trilobites all exploded one day and there are none left around here. That's right, the next rainy season will form a new stratum with no trilobites in it. No new trilobites will appear in any stratum above this one, ever.
Now you may say, well, what if a meteor crashes in to the earth and disturbs all this stuff in such a way that a trilobite does end up on top even though they've been dead for say, twenty years. What if the earth opens up and shoots out buried trilobytes in a big gusher of steam and sludge, huh, then your dating scheme will be twenty years off won't it?
And the answer is no, anything like that will break the strata. They won't be a smooth lovely ant-farm cross-section of layer-cake with nuts anymore, they will be ugly shards of peanut brittle. As a result, those trilobites won't be put on the "geological column" we are drawing up. Only intact strata count. In cases where layers are not horizontal or do not configure to the shape of the layers below them no inference may be made as to relative time based on superposition.
others have shown me how discrete deposits show up in stream beds
I would like to hear more about this. I assume you are talking about running streams, streams that don't go dry. I'm having trouble imagining how "solidification" can happen in a liquid at all, much less moving water. I can just barely visualize very still water rich in minerals slowly producing one large layer of sediment. Then if all the minerals were gone and it remained perfectly still and then new minerals showed up somehow. But that would take a very VERY long time, much longer than the normal wet-dry process. And if anything at all disturbed it the stratum forming would have to start over, this would lead to less strata than individual deposit events, not more.
Now the geologists like this word "catastrophic", it seems to mean specifically breaking of the rocks and invalidating the arrangement. None of the fossils found inside the volcano would count for example, because its a big hole with a vertical grain rather than a series of nice layers. Volcanoes are catastrophic, strata aren't.
huge jumbled-up collections of so many that demonstrate a sudden mass death
That would be catastrophic, the rocks wouldn't count.
A gigantic flood moving sediments to and fro
That would be catastrophic, the rocks wouldn't count.
the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up
Peanut brittle, no strata, wouldn't count.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 5:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 131 of 142 (330629)
07-10-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by deerbreh
07-10-2006 5:04 PM


Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
YOU ARE IN VIOLATION OF THE RULE AGAINST ARGUING THE PERSON RATHER THAN THE SUBJECT.
"Whatever". That's not a convincing argument. And this is not the first time you have indicated you will "think about it later." Then somehow you often don't get back to it or you address it in a superficial way. How many times can you refuse to think about "an inconvenient truth" before you realize that the Flood model cannot explain the fossil evidence? As for the discussion, it is about fossils, and you started it, I believe. You don't get to ignore grass and grass pollen fossils just because they don't fit your Flood model.
The first bolded section is all a characterization of me and my supposed personal flaws, and it includes a question-begging phrase about what I'm supposed to "realize" -- your position of course; and the second bolded section is an accusation of my motives when I've already explained my intentions -- whether I ever get to realize them or not is none of your business.
I am in the process of studying the geo time table and I'm sorry I let myself get sucked back onto this thread so soon anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 132 of 142 (330630)
07-10-2006 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
07-10-2006 1:47 PM


Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
It does?
From a basic physics point of view, show that objects like that would get deposited just like that, in layers no less.
I would like to see an experiment that reproduces the distrubution of objects in layers like that.
I mean, we can see the exact opposite of your claim, because we see how things get deposited on the sea floor today.. year after year, century after century.
You see, your claim 'it makes sense' is just not good enough, because the observations of modern life show that it just doesn't work that way.

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AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 142 (330631)
07-10-2006 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Faith
07-10-2006 9:18 PM


Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
Faith, dear, lets not mix up our Admin mode with our laymen posting mode.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 9:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 142 (330632)
07-10-2006 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Faith
07-10-2006 9:18 PM


Faith's complaint
Faith I can't see where the message you are responding to addresses anything other than the message. I will ask Buz and other Admins to take a look at it if you want.

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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 131 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 9:18 PM Faith has not replied

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 135 of 142 (330636)
    07-10-2006 9:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 129 by deerbreh
    07-10-2006 5:49 PM


    Re: A layman looks at the evidence.
    Arguing against old earth, Faith writes:
    Very very rarely, and not in the abundance and huge jumbled-up collections (of fossils)of so many that demonstrate a sudden mass death.
    But then goes on to argue,
    The worldwide existence of layers containing discrete fossil collections simply makes no sense at all on a long-time scenario.
    So which argument against old earth do you want to use, Faith, jumbled up collections of fossils or discrete fossil collections?
    Silly word game. Dinosaurs and other fossils TOGETHER WITH THEIR OWN KIND but frequently "jumbled up" in beds is not the same thing as all the sediments "jumbled up" together. Words are used in different senses and contexts in case you haven't noticed.
    OK, sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I meant by "collections" groups of the same sort of fossilized creature -- such as dinosaurs, which ARE often found all in a gigantic heap together. Nothing to do with *EVERYTHING* being all jumbled up. I guess I should have said it more clearly. Creatures congregate together. Birds of a feather and all that. That's why they end up together fossilized in the layers, which in fact makes no sense on a one-by-one-staggered-there-to-die scenario.
    SEDIMENTS being all jumbled up together, however, is in fact what one would expect from the evolutionist scenario, this slow accumulation of ...DIRT ... over millions of years.
    The separate-sediments-per-period idea is ludicrous in the extreme, and the discrete collections of fossils within just adds to the joke.
    The best one is the first one, which of course is, unfortunately for the Floodist, contrary to the facts, as this thread shows. The fossils are not jumbled up but rather collections of fossils characteristic to particular geological ages. Yes, you could say discrete.
    Only such a catastrophe as a worldwide flood would have preserved such collections as it did, obviously in a state of sudden death.
    In discussions on this very site others have shown me how discrete deposits show up in stream beds for instance.
    Of course. Different deposition events over time will result in layers of deposits. That doesn't support a Flood model no matter how much you assert that it does.
    All it supports is that water is the cause of layering of separate sediments.
    A gigantic flood moving sediments to and fro could very well explain what we see.
    Not hundreds and thousands of lithified layers cut through by rivers. No way.
    Those "rivers" are most likely runoff from the flood waters, and tidal backdraw during the receding of the flood between deposition of layers.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by deerbreh, posted 07-10-2006 5:49 PM deerbreh has not replied

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