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Author Topic:   Design on a Dime
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 97 of 113 (416621)
08-17-2007 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Hyroglyphx
08-17-2007 1:20 AM


Re: I've Heard It Before, But It Still Makes Me Laugh
Everything that exists in the physical world, including time/space/matter, has a beginning that is contingent upon the causation of something else. This is axiomatic.
There's your problem. There are no axioms in science.
Axioms are a feature of mathematics, not of the empirical study of the natural world. Nothing in science is axiomatic, except as a euphemism. Even then they're usually kidding.
There are no axioms in science. Why are you so relentlessly misinformed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-17-2007 1:20 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-18-2007 1:38 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 104 of 113 (416905)
08-18-2007 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Hyroglyphx
08-18-2007 1:38 AM


Re: I've Heard It Before, But It Still Makes Me Laugh
Then why do you insist on such axioms yourself?
Why do you insist on compounding your error with one-sentence responses that are completely inaccurate fabrications?
There are no axioms in science. There are only theories, supported by evidence. You're simply inventing axioms to avoid having to support your assertions with evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-18-2007 1:38 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 08-18-2007 1:57 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 106 of 113 (416920)
08-18-2007 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Percy
08-18-2007 1:57 PM


Re: I've Heard It Before, But It Still Makes Me Laugh
NJ might be thinking of the inferences we make about physical laws, namely that they are consistent and comprehensible. An example of such an inference is that the speed of light is the same everywhere, even though we only have data from a tiny proportion of the actual universe.
Sure, but even those things, we believe them because there's evidence for them. We discover physical laws (to the extent that laws exist, etc.) because of the evidence of their existence.
On the other hand, in mathematics, axioms are things that you assume are true. You just invent axioms, they're not derived from anything - you pick the axioms you want to support the derivations you want to derive.
Rrhain had a post on this on another thread, relating to Euclid's fifth postulate. If you accept it as axiomatic the way Euclid formed it, then you're operating in Euclidian geometry. If you accept instead an axiom that says "given a line L and a point p outside L, there exists no line parallel to L passing through p," you're operating in elliptic geometry.
You can pick and choose whatever axioms you want, because you don't have to prove them. They're
quote:
a sentence or proposition that is not proved or demonstrated and is considered as self-evident or as an initial necessary consensus for a theory building or acceptation. Therefore, it is taken for granted as true, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferencing other (theory dependent) truths.
Axiom - Wikipedia
That's what I mean when I say there's no axioms in science. We don't simply accept things without proof or demonstration in science. There aren't "sacred cows" that we never stop to inspect or that are immune from a requirement of justification.
We don't take things for granted in the sciences. Things are demonstrated with evidence - not simply accepted as true because it's convenient to believe them. Or am I wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 08-18-2007 1:57 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 08-18-2007 3:43 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 108 of 113 (416931)
08-18-2007 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Percy
08-18-2007 3:43 PM


Re: I've Heard It Before, But It Still Makes Me Laugh
I know what you mean, but I'm not sure NJ does. I think that when he asks why science relies on axioms, he's actually thinking of science's tendency to assign universality to that which we've only established locally or incompletely.
Maybe, but if you follow my messages back to what I was replying to, it's pretty obvious that NJ was using "axiom" to mean "assertions I can make without having to support them." When asked to support an assertion, he replied that it was an "axiom of science." (I didn't see where he asked why science relies on axioms, but maybe I wasn't paying very close attention.)
But there are no axioms in science. That's why it's a pretty ridiculous dodge.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 08-18-2007 3:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Percy, posted 08-18-2007 5:09 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 113 of 113 (417026)
08-19-2007 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Hyroglyphx
08-19-2007 1:53 AM


Re: I've Heard It Before, But It Still Makes Me Laugh
Ignorance =/= stupidity.
What I can't figure out is why, after being so regularly embarrassed as you are, you don't ever bother to do the homework.
Do you get it? That we're not saying you're wrong because we disagree with you; we're saying you're wrong because the things you say are facts simply aren't?
Isn't it easier to be right the first time than to engage in the ridiculous levels of obfuscation, redaction, and backpedalling you employ to cover up your huge gaffes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-19-2007 1:53 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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