Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,357 Year: 3,614/9,624 Month: 485/974 Week: 98/276 Day: 26/23 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   answersincreation.org (Literal Genesis AND Old Earth Creationism?)
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 76 of 105 (547793)
02-22-2010 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Coyote
02-22-2010 9:02 PM


Re: The Dog kind?
coyotes dine regularly on Beverly Hills poodles and other pampered pets.
And they play a pretty good game of hockey, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Coyote, posted 02-22-2010 9:02 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Coyote, posted 02-22-2010 9:20 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2125 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 77 of 105 (547797)
02-22-2010 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by AZPaul3
02-22-2010 9:16 PM


Re: The Dog kind?
Not familiar with that Coyote, but I understand there's another group of the same name around San Francisco that plays a lot of games.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by AZPaul3, posted 02-22-2010 9:16 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 78 of 105 (547837)
02-23-2010 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by achristian1985
02-22-2010 5:30 PM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Hi again achristian1985,
Dinosaurs I would most definitely think would probably belong in the time frame between Gen. 1:1-1:2, before the six-day account resulting in homo sapiens.
But that doesn't work either. That would mean that dinosaurs were around before before God made the dry land for them to live on and made plants for them to eat (on day three). Some of the groups on your list pre-date the dinosaurs; others overlap with them.
Genesis 1:1 is just there as a chapter heading. It sets the scene for what is to come, then, from Gen 1:2 onwards, the story is told in detail. Then it's told again, slightly differently, in Gen 2. Are you aware that most modern scholars believe Gen 1 and Gen 2 to have been written by a different hands?
Honestly, you're pursuing a dead-end trying to make Genesis 1 fit the fossil record and that's without even getting into the problems of the contradicting account in Genesis 2...
My advice is to save yourself the bother and accept that the Genesis account is not in agreement with the fossil record.
Mutate and Survive

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by achristian1985, posted 02-22-2010 5:30 PM achristian1985 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by achristian1985, posted 02-23-2010 2:55 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 81 by kbertsche, posted 02-24-2010 9:08 PM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 105 (547873)
02-23-2010 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Granny Magda
02-23-2010 9:14 AM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Author’s note (2/23/10): the above paragraph is not correct as is. I have been told that this ordering is not valid. There are 3 possibilities for this:
1. The ordering of the six-day account is not literal, but is allegorical. (I do not wish to arbitrarily abandon this, since it is strong evidence of science verifying the Bible. 2. The six-day account is literal, and the ordering is correct. A. There are two separate ‘creations’ in Genesis: One which occurred between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2 which ended in the pre-Adamic race who rebelled, were judged with water, and became the disembodied spirits known as demons. B. The six-day account which resulted in Homo Sapiens. 3. Although evidence of the traces of the civilization of the pre-Adamic race were removed, traces of the geologic ages involved (unknown length) still exist. These traces may very well be interwoven with the geology involving Homo Sapiens. This interweaving may very well be the cause of the scientific chronology contradicting a literal ordering of the six life-forms of the six-day account. I will update this ASAP if further relevant empirical conclusions can be made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2010 9:14 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Granny Magda, posted 02-24-2010 3:42 AM achristian1985 has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 80 of 105 (547939)
02-24-2010 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by achristian1985
02-23-2010 2:55 PM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Sorry to keep pestering you achristian1985, but I still don't see how you can square the Bible with the fossil record without completely going off the deep end.
1. The ordering of the six-day account is not literal, but is allegorical.
Did you ever consider that it might be literal and allegorical?
Or that it might be literal but simply untrue?
I do not wish to arbitrarily abandon this, since it is strong evidence of science verifying the Bible.
I would dispute that the Bible has much in the way of science. There are few claims in there that touch upon science and most of what there is gets things very wrong indeed.
I would be interested to hear some of the Bible passages that you feel represent good science and as it happens, there is a thread open for that very purpose; Where Science And The Bible Meet. Please feel free to post some of your ideas there.
2. The six-day account is literal, and the ordering is correct.
But it isn't correct, as demonstrated above.
A. There are two separate ‘creations’ in Genesis: One which occurred between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2 which ended in the pre-Adamic race who rebelled, were judged with water, and became the disembodied spirits known as demons.
Wow. You're getting a lot out of "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." aren't you?
Even if this fantastical notion were true, it is not relevant. Genesis 1 has birds being created before land animals. That's just wrong.
Genesis has grasses being created before ocean life. That's just wrong. Demons or no demons, the order is wrong.
3. Although evidence of the traces of the civilization of the pre-Adamic race were removed, traces of the geologic ages involved (unknown length) still exist. These traces may very well be interwoven with the geology involving Homo Sapiens. This interweaving may very well be the cause of the scientific chronology contradicting a literal ordering of the six life-forms of the six-day account.
No, that doesn't work either.
The "geology involving Homo Sapiens" is only very tiny, a tiny sliver off the top of the geologic column. Even if we had no knowledge of the human fossil record, the order of creation is still completely wrong.
Now if you want to believe that God stepped in and jumbled up the fossil record, the theological implications are bad enough - it casts God in an extremely unflattering light - but the real problem is simply that the fossil record is not jumbled up in this way. Geologists are very good at dating rocks and fossils and their studies reveal a story of gradual emergence of life forms over hundreds of millions of years.
The "scientific chronology" is not interwoven with any primal age, it makes perfect sense as it stands. These are real rocks we're talking about and they really do reveal a story that clashes with the Bible's. Trying to mix up this empirical record for the sake of shoehorning it into the Bible's version of events is only going to lead you astray, both scientifically and theologically. The Bible authors simply had no concept of modern geology or the ancient history of life. Expecting their works to reflect realities that they were totally unaware of is not reasonable and it won't help you understand their intents as writers.
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : Fix code.

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by achristian1985, posted 02-23-2010 2:55 PM achristian1985 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by kbertsche, posted 02-24-2010 9:17 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 85 by achristian1985, posted 02-27-2010 2:48 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2150 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 81 of 105 (548011)
02-24-2010 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Granny Magda
02-23-2010 9:14 AM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
quote:
Genesis 1:1 is just there as a chapter heading. It sets the scene for what is to come, then, from Gen 1:2 onwards, the story is told in detail. Then it's told again, slightly differently, in Gen 2. Are you aware that most modern scholars believe Gen 1 and Gen 2 to have been written by a different hands?
This is a valid view, and a number of Evangelical scholars (e.g. Gordon Wenham) hold it.
However, I would argue from the Hebrew grammar that Gen 1:1 is the first event in a waw-consecutive sequence. The second event is in verse 3: "and then God said ..." With this interpretation, God first created everything in Gen 1:1. It was created in a raw form, but not yet finished (its raw state is described in Gen 1:2). The six "days" begin in Gen 1:3 and describe the finishing of what was made in Gen 1:1.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2010 9:14 AM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by achristian1985, posted 02-27-2010 2:31 AM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2150 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 82 of 105 (548013)
02-24-2010 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Granny Magda
02-24-2010 3:42 AM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
quote:
Did you ever consider that it might be literal and allegorical?
E.g. Jack Collins' calls the days of Genesis "analogical days." (C. John Collins is an Evangelical scholar who is NOT a YEC).
quote:
Or that it might be literal but simply untrue?
As an Evangelical, I find the term "untrue" to be too harsh. But if you said "literal but non-historical" I would give this a lot of credence. There is a large amount of symbolism and metaphor in Genesis 1. It is entirely possible that the original author himself did not present it as history, but as a metaphorical story to describe the creation of the cosmos, somewhat like a parable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Granny Magda, posted 02-24-2010 3:42 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by achristian1985, posted 02-27-2010 2:34 AM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied
 Message 86 by Granny Magda, posted 02-27-2010 6:01 AM kbertsche has replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 105 (548358)
02-27-2010 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by kbertsche
02-24-2010 9:08 PM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Evolution as a scientific discipline must be divorced from the associated parent philosophy Uniformitarianism which was in vogue preceding it for reasons which have been discredited since. Evolution is a valid scientific discipline, Uniformitarianism is a disproven philosophy and school of thought. Uniformitarianism has intruded and embedded itself into scientific thought and thus skewed many considerations of cosmology and astral physics from being objective and empirical. Never mind poor old Emmanuel Velikovsky: While the evidence that he was considering was and is relevant and valid, his derivations (due to his great lack in correct scientific methodology) and conclusions were far amiss. He thus did a great disservice to the school of astral catastrophism, and set back its credibility immensely.
The most recent conclusive disproof of Uniformitarianism is this(Coverage to the public was broadcast on a segment of Nova in the last 12 months):
1. In the past decade (survey completion in last 3-4 years) a radar/topological mapping satellite of improved precision surveyed the surface of Venus.
2. Recently formed (even of possibly historical times), non-eroded craters were found in large and significant quantities on the surface of Venus, craters which were not the result of volcanic activity, but of astral catastrophism (meteoric impact).
3. The renowned (I didn’t take note of his name, due to the following) uniformitarian astrophysicist was interviewed for his opinion he said: Well, I don’t see how Uniformitarianism can ever possibly explain these craters. But, nevertheless, I’m not willing to give it up.
4. Gentlemen, this is not objective, logical, scientific methodology. Scientific methodology requires that when the derived conclusions of your theory are found to be false in light of the evidence, then you either discard the theory or, if possible modify the flawed part of it accordingly. To cling to it after it has been disproved is not objective, it is religious domaticism.
Creationism per se in all of its multi-fared manifestations, invoking to some extent and at some point a supernatural genesis of species, thus by its very nature cannot nor ever can be a scientific discipline. That being the case, creationism has absolutely no place whatsoever in any scientific textbook.
Paul
http://www.amessageforthehumanrace.org
Genesis 1:3 NOT a continuation of Gen 1:2. Gen 1:1 uses bara; Gen1:3 etc. asah (ref: Earth's Earliest Ages. Gen 1:2 The earth BECAME (NOT was) waste and void.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines between paragraphs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by kbertsche, posted 02-24-2010 9:08 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 105 (548360)
02-27-2010 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by kbertsche
02-24-2010 9:17 PM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Try this to remove the blindness in the minds of the unbelieving put there by the god of this world:
CHAPTER ONE
THE AXIOM
I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness;
I did not say . . . Seek me in chaos.
--(Isaiah 5:19 D.S.V.)
There are two possible schools of thought pertaining to the evaluation of the Universe that we live in. One school of thought is embodied in the philosophy known as Solipsism. This philosophy expounds that all external reality is relative to the perception of the individual, or, in other words, all reality is subjective and cannot be described by objective analysis. As an example, Solipsism is the belief that everything that individuals perceive is a projection of the thoughts of their mind. Taken to its fullest implications, Solipsism means that if you think strongly that an object that you perceive does not really exist, then you will cease to perceive it and it will thus disappear. Conversely, if you think strongly enough that an object does exist, then you will perceive it and it will thus exist. Understandably, the ardent adherents of this school of thought soon lost what sanity they had.
When we lead from ignorance, we can come to no conclusions. When we say, Anything can happen, and anything can be, because we know so little that we have no right to say ‘This is’ or ‘This isn’t,’ then all reasoning comes to a halt right there. We can eliminate nothing; we can assert nothing. All we can do is put words and thoughts together on the basis of intuition or faith or revelation and, unfortunately, no two people seem to share the same intuition or faith or revelation.
What we must do is place rules and set limits, however arbitrary these may seem to be. We then discover what we can say within these rules and limits. The scientific view of the Universe is such as to admit only those phenomena that can, in one way or another, be observed in a fashion accessible to all, and to admit those generalizations (which we call laws of nature) that can be induced from those observations.1
Most importantly, Einstein presumed that all the laws of nature must be entirely equivalent in all conceivable systems of reference, differing only by uniform velocities. Without an ether, reasoned Einstein, there is no real physical basis for absolute spatial positions or orientations; all, therefore, must be relative to the observer. At the same time, all observers must see the many laws of nature in an identical way.2
Science deals only with phenomena that can be reproduced; observations that, under certain fixed conditions, can be made by anybody of normal intelligence; observations upon which reasonable men can agree.3
In opposition to Solipsism is the school of thought that objective interpretation of the universe we live in is possible. Since the validity of Solipsism would mean that it would be impossible to make logical sense out of what we are aware of, we will assume that Solipsism is invalid. Bearing this in mind, I propose the following axiom, which we may call the Axiom of Interdependency:
If a spiritual universe exists, there likewise must also exist laws or principles common to both such a spiritual universe and to the physical universe, in order for us to be able to perceive any manifestation of such a spiritual universe.
Notice that this axiom in no way assumes the existence of a spiritual universe. The reason why seeking objective proof of the existence of a spiritual universe is futile will be dealt with in later chapters.
What this axiom does say is that if a spiritual universe exists that does not have laws or principles in common with our physical universe, then we cannot be aware of it and thus it would be of no concern to us. However, if a spiritual universe exists such that we are aware of some of its manifestations, then it will have laws or principles in common with our physical universe. Thus, for any postulated assertion of a spiritual reality, there should be corresponding evidence of that reality reflected in our physical universe. Conversely, it should be possible to formulate a framework of characteristics of the physical universe that will indicate the nature of the corresponding spiritual reality. Practically speaking, this axiom means that it is possible to construct a logical theory encompassing virtually every field of science that will explain the purpose behind everything known to man.
Chapter Two
AN EXTRAPOLATION
... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:10)
There are two, and only two, explanations for the means whereby life now exists on this planet.
First, there is the explanation that life on earth was divinely created. Regardless of the great variety of legends depicting such an occurrence, all such legends have in common two things: Life was originated by some supernatural means, and some divine being or beings employed this means.
Since, obviously, there is no way that the above explanation of the origin of life can be subjected to any scientific analysis, it would be profitless to discuss its merits (at this point). Therefore, let us examine the other explanation for the origin of life and see what conclusions may be derived from such an analysis.
The other means I am referring to is, of course, the theory of evolution. By evolution, I mean the process or processes whereby life as we now know it has come about from an originally inorganic universe through purely mechanistic actions in conformity with the laws of the physical universe. Keeping these parameters in mind, let us now see what relevant conclusions may be derived:
Moreover, while Haldane and Oparin (both atheists) could cheerfully divorce life and God, others were offended by this and strove to show that there was no way in which the origin of life could be removed from the miraculous and made the result of the chance collisions of atoms.
A French biophysicist, Piere Lecomte du Noűy dealt with this very matter in his book, Human Destiny, which was published in 1947. By then the full complexity of the protein molecule was established, and Lecomte du Noűy attempted to show that if the various atom of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur arranged themselves in purely random order, the chance of their arriving in this way at even a single protein molecule of the type associated with life was so exceedingly small that the entire lifetime of the universe would be insufficient to offer it more than an insignificant chance of happening. Chance, he maintained, could not account for life....
Lecomte du Nouy's argument seemed exceedingly strong, and many people eagerly let themselves be persuaded by it and still do even today.
?Yet it is wrong.
Options Disable Sm The fallacy in Lecomte du Noūy’s argument rests in the assumption that pure chance was alone the guiding factor and that atoms can fit together in any fashion at all. Actually, atoms are guided in their combinations by well?known laws of physics and chemistry, so that the formation of complex compounds from simple ones are constrained by severely restrictive rules that sharply limit the number of different ways in which they combine. What's more, as we approach complex molecules, such as those of proteins and nucleic acids, there is no one particular molecule that is associated with life, but innumerable different molecules, till of which are in association.4
What we learn it from the above is that the formation of organic molecules from inorganic atoms is entirely permissible, mathematically speaking, according to the laws of physics and chemistry governing such interactions.
Most of the stony meteorites contain small glassy inclusions, and about two percent of these are called carbonaceous chondrites because they contain significant quantities of organic matter. The proportions, in fact, are extraordinarily high. About 0.1 percent of all material, which has ever fallen on Earth, is organic. By comparison, if we measure the total weight of all organic matter on earth against the mass of the planet itself, only 0.0000001 percent is of living origin. This means that meteors are coming from somewhere that is a million times more organic than earth itself?which is something one has to stop and think about for a while.5
Not only are organic molecules mechanistically permissible, but also direct evidence of their existence, in astounding proportions, elsewhere than on Earth is a fact.
These are the stuff of organic chemistry, the study of compounds producing, or produced by living organisms; and these are the kinds of reaction, which it now seems certain, are taking place between the stars.
Awareness of this possibility seems to have reached a peak at a gathering of astronomers in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in 1973. Several papers presented to what is now known as the Dusty Universe symposium pointed out that there seemed to be a lot of atoms missing from interstellar space. Spectroscopic analyses kept coming up with results that showed less carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen than everyone expected to find there.
New models were put forward, slid the most promising of these suggested that the missing atoms had gone undetected because they were bound up on the surface of interstellar dust grains in a sort of molecular mush which Mayo Greenburg called "dirty ice." At that time there was little experimental evidence for the existence of such accretions on cosmic grains, but since then, radio astronomy ? which receives and interprets microwaves rather than light waves, and can look right through interstellar clouds ? has given us what we need. The very short radio waves provide a sort of electronic spectrum that includes fingerprints as distinctive as those that appear in the lines of an optical spectrum. And in the last few years radio astronomers have detected an ever?increasing list of simple organic molecules in interstellar space.
The first substances detected in this way were nothing more than simple connections of the most common atoms: cyanogens (CN), carbon monoxide (CO), and hydrogen cyanide (HCN) But then formaldehyde (H2CO) was found, and before long formic acid (HCOOH), methanol (CH2OH) acetaldehyde (HCOCH3) and methyl firmate (HCOOCH3) turned up. One doesn't have to be a chemist to see that the progression is toward ever more complex organic compounds.6
The existence of organic molecules has not only been verified in meteors reaching the Earth's surface, but has also been verified as being true for interstellar space as well. How can this be so? Weren't we taught that chemical reactions required heat and were inhibited by cold, cold such as we find in interstellar space?
It used to be assumed that chemical reactions need heat and slow down as temperatures were reduced. This is true, but only up to a point. We now know that as the temperature nears absolute zero, a strange thermodynamic inversion takes place and many processes actually accelerate, so that the complex early evolution of carbon compounds is more likely to take place inside interstellar clouds than almost anywhere else.7
At any rate, Leslie Orgel did a number of elegant experiments of which I will describe the simplest. He took some of the basic constituents, which are sure to have been present in the atmosphere of the earth at any early time: hydrogen cyanide is one, ammonia is another. He made a dilute solution of them in water, and then froze the solution over a period of several days. As a result, the concentrated material is pushed into a sort of tiny iceberg to the top, and there the presence of a small amount of color reveals that organic molecules have been formed. Some amino acids, no doubt; but, most important, Orgel found that he had formed one of the four fundamental constituents in the genetic alphabet which directs all life. He had made adenine, one of the four bases in DNA.8
The chemical reactions permissible under cold conditions have been shown to be capable of producing a very high level of complexity of organic molecules, even up to the level of the basic constituent of all known life, DNA.
The compounds in the carbonaceous chondrites are not life; they have formed in the direction of our kind of life?and human experimenters have had nothing to do with their formation. On the whole, then, meteoritic studies tend to support laboratory, experiments and make it appear all the more likely that life is a natural, a normal, and even an inevitable phenomenon. Atoms apparently tend to come together to form compounds in the direction of our kind of life whenever they have the least chance to do so.9
It is always possible that the laboratory conditions producing organic molecules have exceeded the limits that existed under the natural conditions that they are simulating. However, meteorites have been shown to contain organic molecules with the same indications; and these were not produced by human experimentation.
It is a big jump from prebiotic molecules in interstellar clouds to primitive organisms on a comet, but it is not an unreasonable one. When a comet gets anywhere near the sun, its water melts and could mingle with the trapped dust to produce a solution of organic molecules which, we know from spectroscopic analysis of Khoutek's comet in 1973, includes amino acids and heterocyclic compounds.10
Scientific analysis has confirmed that organic molecules basic to life definitely do exist in space.
At least one further source of information about the strange things in meteorites remains to be explored. If the organic compounds are protocells in a state of suspended animation, perhaps they can be roused. Soviet and American scientists have been trying to do just that.
Fred Sisler of the United States Geological Survey has begun collecting samples from the interior of carbonaceous chondrites, and he finds that even after a long period under sterile conditions, some of his nutrient broths nevertheless cloud over, indicating the presence of living microorganisms. And at least one of these sleeping beauties, roused from an unimaginable slumber, is totally unfamiliar to terrestrial microbiologists. No one has ever seen anything like it here before, so it is going to be hard to dismiss that one as a contaminant.11
Not only have meteorites proven the existence of extraterrestrial organic molecules but, in one case, they have also given us proof of the existence of extraterrestrial life:
Several rigorous analyses of carbonaceous chondrites have now been made, and all show quite clearly that they contain compounds such as paraffins, long?chain aromatic hydrocarbons like tar, fatty acids, amino acids (the basic precursors of protein), and even porphyrins (the building blocks of chlorophyll). And in early 1977, an international group of seven scientists ? astronomers, chemists, and applied mathematicians ?collaborated in an intensive study on a recently collected chondrites from a site in Africa. They found that it contained an organic compound, an aromatic polymer, whose spectral properties are identical those long to known from interstellar extinction curves. The fingerprints are unique and unmistakable. For the first time we have proof that some meteorites have their origin in presolar interstellar clouds and must be among the most primitive solid bodies in the universe. And, more than that, we have evidence of a cosmic trade in which complex organic compounds, precisely those necessary for the initiation of life, are manufactured in space and imported here to Earth. 12
Evidence proves that meteorites are of interstellar origin. This means that organic material not only is distributed throughout interstellar space but also is readily available to any planetary system in the galaxy. Let us now examine what is known about processes involving organic molecules under terrestrial conditions.
In other words, we don't depend on chance alone, but on chance guided by the laws of nature, and that should be enough.
Could the matter be checked in the laboratory? The American chemist Harold Clayton Grey encouraged a young student, Stanley Lloyd Miller (1930), to run the necessary experiment in 1952.
Miller tried to duplicate primordial conditions on Earth, assuming Oparin's Atmosphere 1. He began with a closed and sterile mixture of water. Ammonia methane, and hydrogen, which represented a small and simple version of Earth's primordial atmosphere and ocean. He then used an electric discharge as an energy source, and that represented a tiny version of the Sun.
He circulated the mixture past the discharge for a week and then analyzed it. The originally colorless mixture had turned pink on the first day, and by the end of the week one?sixth of the methane with which Miller had started had been converted into more complex molecules. Among those molecules were glycine and alanine, the two simplest of the amino acids that occur in proteins.
In the years after that key experiment, other similar experiments were conducted with variations in starting materials and in energy sources. Invariably, more complicated molecules, sometimes identical with those in living tissues, sometimes merely related to them, were formed. An amazing variety of key molecules of living tissue were formed "spontaneously" in this manner, although calculations of the simplistic Lecomte du Nouy type would have given their formation virtually no chance.
If this could be done in small volumes over very short ? periods of time, what could have been done in an entire ocean, over a period of many millions of years?
It was also impressive that all the changes produced in the laboratory by the chance collisions of molecules and the chance absorption of energy (guided always by the known laws of nature) seemed to move always in the direction of life as we know it now. There seemed no important changes that pointed definitely in some different chemical direction.
That made it seem as though life were an inevitable product of high probability varieties of chemical reactions, and that the formation of life on the primordial Earth could not have been avoided. 13
All indications are that, given the constituency of the primordial?biosphere, the formation of life as we know it appears inevitable.
The implications were overwhelming. The ingredients themselves had the automatically linked together into these compounds fundamental to life.14
But the self?assembling tendency of matter, its inherent capacity to form living material, had been clearly demonstrated. 15
All of this evidence? in the laboratory, in meteorites, in interstellar clouds? makes it look as though the Haldane?Oparin suggestions are correct. Life did start spontaneously on the primordial Earth, and all indications would seem to be that it must have started readily, that the reactions in that direction were inevitable.
It follows that life would therefore start, sooner or later, on any habitable planet. 16
Scientific evidence indicates that, wherever favorable planetary conditions exist, life will inevitably evolve.
Obviously, the next question to be answered is: do we know whether or not our planetary system is unique?
A few photographic demonstrations of such massive planets have, in recent years, been achieved. Planets massive enough to be detected in this way are unlikely, however, to have conditions on them conducive to life, at least life, as we know it. Nevertheless, their existence does offer yet further indication of the universality of planetary systems. 17
Thus, the conditions are everywhere to be found throughout the universe much as we find them here in the solar system. The ingredients are everywhere the same, too, and the laws of physics. It would therefore seem almost impossible to escape the natural conclusion that life must consequently have arisen elsewhere in the universe? independently, many times, and in many places.18
As we survey evolution on Earth, there does seem a trend in the direction of increasing size and complexity (occasionally overdone?, to be sure, to the point of diminishing returns). What's more, increasing complexity seems almost to involve increasing intelligence in widespread groups of living things....
The weight of evidence, as presently known, therefore forces us to consider that intelligence, and sufficient intelligence to produce a civilization, is more or less an inevitable development on a habitable planet given sufficient time.... 19
The next step is to estimate the number of habitable planets both in the universe and in our particular galaxy.
Up to a billion galaxies can be detected by modern telescopes, stretching out to distances of a billion light?years.20
That would mean that in the observable universe, there are as many as 1,000,000,000,000,000.000,000 (a billion trillion) stars.21
ilies 1 - The number of stars in our galaxy ? 300 '000,000,000.22
8 ? The number of habitable planets in our galaxy ? 650,000,000.23
It is rather breathtaking to decide on the basis of (we hope) strict logic and the beat evidence we can find that there are 650 million habitable planets in our galaxy alone, and therefore over 2 billion billion in the Universe as a whole.24
How hard it is for the human mind to comprehend the enormity of this conclusion! How hard it is to realize the astronomical magnitude of our universe!
The number of planets in our galaxy on which a technological civilization has developed ? 390,000,000:...
That means that of the 390 million civilizations in our galaxy, only 260 are as primitive as we are?an inconsiderable number. All the rest (meaning just about all of them) are more advanced than we are.25
According to what are perhaps the most logical estimates that we can at present supply, there are 390 million civilizations in our galaxy alone, all but 260 of which are more advanced than ours. There are approximately 3 billion times that many civilizations in the universe. What conclusions can be deduced if we add to these figures the implications inherent to the process of evolution itself?
The ultimate result is that each creature tends to become more and more improved in relation to its condition. This improvement leads to the gradual advancement of the organization of the greater number of living beings throughout the world. 26
Evolution is the climbing of a ladder from simple to complex by steps, each of which is stable in itself. That is what has brought life by slow steps but constantly up a ladder of increasing complexity- which is the central progress and problem in evolution. 27
It might even be that a dying civilization might provide for its own succession, either by the genetic engineering of some near-intelligent species or by the creation of artificial intelligence. 28
Given the vastness of the universe and the consequent profusion of life, what must the ultimate consummation of the process of evolution be?
It is my contention that the inevitable and ultimate result of evolution is this: that somewhere, sooner or later, an entity would be evolved through either natural or artificial means which would no longer be subject to time.
What are the implications of such a conclusion?
Such an entity would in all practicality be:
1. Omnipotent and
2. Omniscient and
3. Omnipresent.
Such an entity would, by definition, be God.
By no means am I intending to speculate about the origin of God.
Such speculation is vain at best and blasphemous at worst. My intention is to show that no matter what method that you employ to explain the existence of life; the inevitable implication is the existence and reality of God.
Summary of Chapter Two:
The fool has said in his heart; there is no God. (Psalm 12:1)
amessageforthehumanrace.org
Chapter Seven. Past History: The World System p.125
I. The Material System
A. The Origin of the Material System
B. The True Purpose of the Material System
II. The Religious System
A. The Source of Religion
B. The World’s Religions
C. The Jewish Religion
D. Christianity, the Religion
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add some more blank lines between paragraphs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by kbertsche, posted 02-24-2010 9:17 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 105 (548362)
02-27-2010 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Granny Magda
02-24-2010 3:42 AM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Schliemann found the Bible to be scientifically helpful. Most of the verifiable validity of the Bible is historical, beyond that can interfere with free will. Every truth in the Bible is two-sided, with both literal and allegorical. Yes, we have to have a mental awareness of knowledge to understand spiritual things, BUT true wisdom comes from spiritual revelation- otherwise don't you think we would (with information and technology) have been able to figure it out (and Coyote would be born again! grrr...)? The relationship God wants with man is a Divine Romance, same as what a man desires in a wife- no spiritual robots nor couch potato lovers.
Edited by achristian1985, : mispelled a word

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Granny Magda, posted 02-24-2010 3:42 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Granny Magda, posted 02-27-2010 6:20 AM achristian1985 has not replied
 Message 92 by Theodoric, posted 03-02-2010 10:15 AM achristian1985 has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 86 of 105 (548372)
02-27-2010 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by kbertsche
02-24-2010 9:17 PM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Hi kbertsche, hope you are well,
This is a valid view, and a number of Evangelical scholars (e.g. Gordon Wenham) hold it.
However, I would argue from the Hebrew grammar that Gen 1:1 is the first event in a waw-consecutive sequence. The second event is in verse 3: "and then God said ..." With this interpretation, God first created everything in Gen 1:1. It was created in a raw form, but not yet finished (its raw state is described in Gen 1:2). The six "days" begin in Gen 1:3 and describe the finishing of what was made in Gen 1:1.
Okay, I can't really argue with your waw-consecutive argument, but nonetheless, this makes little sense to me. If God created the heaven in Gen 1:1, why does he make it again in 1:6-8? This makes no narrative sense.
As an Evangelical, I find the term "untrue" to be too harsh. But if you said "literal but non-historical" I would give this a lot of credence.
I am sorry to say that I think you are being dishonest with yourself here.
If the events in Genesis did not happen, then the story is untrue. It's as simple as that. Stories that detail events that never occurred are untrue; anything else is sophistry. We know that the earth was not created in the way Genesis describes. None of it is accurate. You know this. Now you may consider that the text contains some allegorical or spiritual truth, but that is irrelevant. I could pick out any number of super-hero comics that contain allegorical truths, but that doesn't mean that stories about Spider-Man or Green Lantern are true.
What are we to call a story that describes events which never took place save for "untrue"?
There is a large amount of symbolism and metaphor in Genesis 1. It is entirely possible that the original author himself did not present it as history, but as a metaphorical story to describe the creation of the cosmos, somewhat like a parable.
Absolutely. Or it may have been intended to describe core events which the authors considered absolutely literal and true (God made everything) by means of details which were not literally true (What was made on each day, etc.).
Alternatively, the allegorical interpretation might have been intended for an educated, priestly audience, the literal for the laity.
Ultimately, we don't know how these books were intended to be read. Even if we did know the authors' intents, they still might not make much sense to a modern view point. My only goal here is to show AC1985 that the events presented did not occur as literal history.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by kbertsche, posted 02-24-2010 9:17 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by kbertsche, posted 02-27-2010 10:08 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 87 of 105 (548373)
02-27-2010 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by achristian1985
02-27-2010 2:48 AM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
Hi ac1985,
You seem to have slid off-topic somewhat, but I will respond to a couple of things;
Schliemann found the Bible to be scientifically helpful.
I don't know about that. What is certainly true though, is that Schliemann found The Iliad much more useful. Does that mean that we should believe in Poseidon? Or Achilles? Of course not.
Besides, this is not what we mean when we talk about science in the Bible. Whether the Bible is an accurate historical document and whether it is a scientifically accurate one are separate issues. Again, I urge you to take your arguments for the scientific accuracy of the Bible to Where Science And The Bible Meet. In this thread, we should really only be discussing a literal Genesis and OEC.
...true wisdom comes from spiritual revelation...
I disagree. But then I would, since the only I'm still here because my life was saved by medical science. No spiritual revelation helped me live; only the fruits of empirical science. I would describe that as being a far more valuable source of wisdom.
Mutate and Survive

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by achristian1985, posted 02-27-2010 2:48 AM achristian1985 has not replied

  
achristian1985
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 105 (548415)
02-27-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
05-11-2005 2:08 PM


Re: Theistic Evolutionism???
Knowledge led me to the Truth, and I have been endeavoring to convey that Truth by finding the correlations in knowledge. Go ahead, shoot the messenger. Much more scientific details have been uncovered in some relevant areas in the past 30 years. I am not a specialist: other, more knowledgeable persons will have to convey such specifics.
I think it is fair to say that many members are motivated by a desire to take pride in being the most knowledgeable about the particular piece of the puzzle that interests them the most. A specialist is someone who knows more and more about less and less until finally they know everything about nothing. Some members have no interest in seeing how their piece fits in, nor about what the complete picture looks like. Anyone who is a member is capable and informed enough to see what direction our world is headed. Can anyone or even all of us change that course? No amount of scientific knowledge, industrial technology, and/or religious (either theist or atheistic) zeal can alter it.
Is there any member who doesn’t have some cognizance, however vague, that the Bible predicts this? Surely this is mere coincidence, and no reason to pull our heads out of the sand?
When teaching anyone a language you first show them the picture, and then the word associated with it. The Old Testament is the pictures.
There was a man named Noah, who built an ark. His building of the ark, and his entering into it, delivered him from the flood.
Two thousand years ago another man- the last Adam- stated that He would build His church and that if we let Him, He would make us the materials for this.
The flood is coming. It’s time to find and enter the lifeboat. There is no more time to argue about icebergs, or plumbing, or to compare staterooms.
My prayers for you, my fellow human beings.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines between paragraphs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-11-2005 2:08 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Coragyps, posted 02-27-2010 8:19 PM achristian1985 has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 753 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 89 of 105 (548480)
02-27-2010 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by achristian1985
02-27-2010 3:20 PM


Re: Theistic Evolutionism???
Is there any member who doesn’t have some cognizance, however vague, that the Bible predicts this?
Is there an antecedent in the word salad that preceded this sentence for that final "this?" Does it perhaps refer to some "direction" in which you perceive societies to be moving? What the heck are you talking about, AC?
And "The flood is coming?" Your Book says not.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by achristian1985, posted 02-27-2010 3:20 PM achristian1985 has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2150 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 90 of 105 (548509)
02-27-2010 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Granny Magda
02-27-2010 6:01 AM


Re: recessive genes, Fall, dinosaurs
quote:
Okay, I can't really argue with your waw-consecutive argument, but nonetheless, this makes little sense to me. If God created the heaven in Gen 1:1, why does he make it again in 1:6-8? This makes no narrative sense.
I think it makes good sense. The literary structure and flow seems to be:
v1) In the beginning, God created everything.
v2) But though the land existed, it was formless and empty. No "realms," and no inhabitants for these realms. This situation needed to be addressed.
v3 ff) So God created "forms" or "realms" on the first three days, and "filled" these realms on the next three days.
Note the symmetry of "forming" and "filling":
Day 1: light----Day 4: light-bearers
Day 2: waters above and below----Day 5: birds and fish
Day 3a: dry land----Day 6a: land animals
Day 3b: vegetation----Day 6b: man (created to live in a garden)
quote:
I am sorry to say that I think you are being dishonest with yourself here.
If the events in Genesis did not happen, then the story is untrue. It's as simple as that. Stories that detail events that never occurred are untrue; anything else is sophistry. We know that the earth was not created in the way Genesis describes. None of it is accurate. You know this. Now you may consider that the text contains some allegorical or spiritual truth, but that is irrelevant. I could pick out any number of super-hero comics that contain allegorical truths, but that doesn't mean that stories about Spider-Man or Green Lantern are true.
What are we to call a story that describes events which never took place save for "untrue"?
I disagree. What about parables, e.g. the parable of the sower and the seeds? Is this parable "true" or "untrue"? I claim it is improper to call this "untrue" even though it was probably not a historical event. It conveys truth and it "rings true" to the reader.
Or what about poetry? Is it "true" or "untrue" that the sun is like a strong man who leaves his tent in the morning and runs across the sky throughout the day, as described in Psalm 19? This is not "true" in a scientific sense, of course. But it describes a real, true observation in poetic terms, so should not be called "untrue," either.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Granny Magda, posted 02-27-2010 6:01 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Granny Magda, posted 03-02-2010 8:03 AM kbertsche has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024