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Author Topic:   Pre Flood Artifacts?
Terry48420
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 35 (181213)
01-27-2005 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by contracycle
11-10-2004 5:18 AM


Re: Flood Dating
Quote from contracycle:
_______________________________________________________________
What I tried to offer before was some information about other regional cultures which had different views to those of the Israelites and why the isrealites might have thought them to be "evil".
_______________________________________________________________
1) There are no Israelites at the time of Noah's flood. Noah predates Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) the fathers of the Israelites.
2) The israelites did not think the surrounding cultures were evil...God did.

Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 35 (181274)
01-28-2005 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by portmaster1000
11-08-2004 8:11 PM


Re: All I can find...
Any maps from before God had to intervene, would be useless. He doesn't mess around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by portmaster1000, posted 11-08-2004 8:11 PM portmaster1000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by roxrkool, posted 01-28-2005 11:38 AM simple has replied
 Message 21 by portmaster1000, posted 01-28-2005 3:19 PM simple has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 35 (181318)
01-28-2005 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Terry48420
01-27-2005 11:26 PM


Re: Flood Dating
quote:
2) The israelites did not think the surrounding cultures were evil...God did.
God does not exist, so it cannot think anything.
quote:
1) There are no Israelites at the time of Noah's flood.
Thats because there was no flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Terry48420, posted 01-27-2005 11:26 PM Terry48420 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 19 of 35 (181333)
01-28-2005 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by contracycle
01-28-2005 9:42 AM


Contributed what?
I'm not sure that post contributed anything to the discussion.
However, you could fairly point out that God isn't an issue in a geology thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by contracycle, posted 01-28-2005 9:42 AM contracycle has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 20 of 35 (181355)
01-28-2005 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by simple
01-28-2005 4:31 AM


Re: All I can find...
Is this your how-very-convenient opinion? Because most YEC researchers say differently.

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 Message 17 by simple, posted 01-28-2005 4:31 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
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portmaster1000
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 35 (181399)
01-28-2005 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by simple
01-28-2005 4:31 AM


Re: All I can find...
simple writes:
Any maps from before God had to intervene, would be useless.
Useless in what way? I would think any surviving maps would be of invaluable historical importance. They "may" have been useless as maps to any flood survivors but now the maps would be priceless.
simple writes:
He doesn't mess around.
I can only guess at your meaning, so here goes... God intervention left all land features on the entire planet largely changed.
What about mountains? Surely they would have remained in the same place. Ararat must have (and been largely identifiable). Using mountain ranges as references, couldn't some maps still be used until new ones were created?
thanx
PM1K

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by simple, posted 01-28-2005 4:31 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by simple, posted 01-29-2005 3:02 AM portmaster1000 has replied

  
portmaster1000
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 35 (181401)
01-28-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Terry48420
01-27-2005 11:26 PM


Re: Flood Dating
Terry48420 writes:
The israelites did not think the surrounding cultures were evil...God did.
This quote leads me directly back to my original question. What pre-flood artifacts show these "God repulsing" evil cultures?
If the earth was full of wicked folks surely they left some of their "trash" behind.
thanx
PM1K

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 Message 16 by Terry48420, posted 01-27-2005 11:26 PM Terry48420 has not replied

  
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 35 (181570)
01-29-2005 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by roxrkool
01-28-2005 11:38 AM


Re: All I can find...
If a flood was total, the maps would be totaled? Even "yec" researchers couldn't find'em!

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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 35 (181574)
01-29-2005 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by portmaster1000
01-28-2005 3:19 PM


Re: All I can find...
quote:
Useless in what way? I would think any surviving maps would be of invaluable historical importance.
Yes they would. I was just trying to emphasize how total the flood would have been. You know, they actually have on old map, they say helped Columbus. From Turkey. Supposedly passed down from verbal records or something, before the flood. What is strange about it is that it has antartica mapped out real great! Remember, that was supposed to be iced up before man existed, I think. So how does this map match sattelite readings, looking under the ice in Antarica, to the surface below?
Could be some something to it. How else would he know? If you can't google it up, I may be able to search my old records. Mountains? Coul;d be. I think Walt Brown, of the hydroplate theory has it that there was a lot of uplift at the time. So, pre flood, if he's right, the mountains would have been a lot smaller.
Ararat may be our mt Ararat, though some say it was an older name for some forgotten mountain or range in the vicinity. One of the Moon astronauts, as I hear it found God, and actually died trying to climb it!
Why was he so convinced? Did he know something? I can't say. I sure believe in the ark, and the flood, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by portmaster1000, posted 01-28-2005 3:19 PM portmaster1000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by berberry, posted 01-29-2005 3:56 AM simple has replied
 Message 26 by JonF, posted 01-29-2005 9:40 AM simple has replied
 Message 34 by portmaster1000, posted 01-30-2005 9:46 PM simple has not replied
 Message 35 by cmanteuf, posted 01-30-2005 11:26 PM simple has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 35 (181580)
01-29-2005 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by simple
01-29-2005 3:02 AM


Re: All I can find...
How does all this silly nonsense about a flood account for the fact that the Chinese have records for the entire period before, during and after this supposed flood? Of course, they had their "great flood" too, but it was at a different period of time, with different survivors. The bible says that only Noah and his family survived.
Most of the great cultures on earth have a flood legend of some sort. It's understandable since great cultures, being great and all, include great numbers of people. If the numbers of people are great, and they didn't spend their entire existance wandering a desert, then at some point in their histories they would have experienced a flood that covered the entire world so far as they knew. These were people who lived thousands of years ago. Ocean navigation as we know it didn't exist. There was no communication to speak of between different cultures, except in a tribe-to-tribe fashion.
The bible gives one account of such a flood. What baffles me is why fundies see such a compelling need to interpret the flood story literally. In so many other places (Genesis 19, for example) fundies insist that the bible must be understood in the context in which it was written. Why not here? If the flood happened, and it covered the entire world known at that time, why do you need all this nonsense about a flood covering the entire globe in order to understand it?

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by simple, posted 01-29-2005 3:02 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by simple, posted 01-30-2005 3:16 AM berberry has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 26 of 35 (181632)
01-29-2005 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by simple
01-29-2005 3:02 AM


OT: Piri Reis map
You know, they actually have on old map, they say helped Columbus. From Turkey. Supposedly passed down from verbal records or something, before the flood. What is strange about it is that it has antartica mapped out real great! Remember, that was supposed to be iced up before man existed, I think. So how does this map match sattelite readings, looking under the ice in Antarica, to the surface below?
The map to which you refer was drawn in 1513 by the Turkish geographer, Piri Reis, and discovered in 1929. Nobody knows what his sources were (although some of the notes on the map say it was drawn from European sources), and speculation about his ultimate sources is just that. Of course, it didn't help Columbus, who died seven years before the map was drawn.
The map is not drawn according to modern conventions, with a latitude-longitude grid. All attempts to correlate the features on the west of the Atlantic involve a certain amount of interpretation, although many of the interpretations are slam-dunks. In general, the farther south you go on the map the more errors appear.
The map does show more detail in what appears to be Brazil than was apparently available to Piri Reis at the time, and there are some interesting questions about where the information came from.
The area which some have interpreted as the coastline of Antarctica has essentially no correspondence to Antarctica, except it's at the south end of the map. It is shown connected to South America (and the southern part of South America is not even close to what's shown on the map). If you squint your eyes and ignore a lot of the drawing, the coast bears a very slight resemblance to the coastline of Antarctica under the ice ... but it bears no resemblance to what the coastline of Antarctica would look like if it didn't have all that ice on it pressing it down! The correspondence that has been "found" involved twisting and distorting different portions of the map differently to force a correspondence. So it certainly doesn't show a pre-ice Antarctica. It's virtually certain it doesn't show Antarctica at all.
See The Piri Reis Map, Minds in Ablation Part Five: Charting Imaginary Worlds, and Fingerprints of the Gods: Re: Piri Reis Map.
Please avoid posting wildly exaggerated and unsupported claims in the science forums. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by simple, posted 01-29-2005 3:02 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by simple, posted 01-30-2005 3:10 AM JonF has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 27 of 35 (181635)
01-29-2005 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by JonF
01-29-2005 9:40 AM


Re: OT: Piri Reis map
"Minds in Ablation!" Thanks beyond words, JonF: if his articles are a tenth as good as his title, I'll enjoy that immensely.

This message is a reply to:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 35 (181767)
01-30-2005 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by JonF
01-29-2005 9:40 AM


Re: OT: Piri Reis map
quote:
The map is not drawn according to modern conventions, with a latitude-longitude grid. All attempts to correlate the features on the west of the Atlantic involve a certain amount of interpretation, although many of the interpretations are slam-dunks. In general, the farther south you go on the map the more errors appear.
The map does show more detail in what appears to be Brazil than was apparently available to Piri Reis at the time, and there are some interesting questions about where the information came from.
The area which some have interpreted as the coastline of Antarctica has essentially no correspondence to Antarctica, except it's at the south end of the map. It is shown connected to South America (and the southern part of South America is not even close to what's shown on the map)
Yes there are two side to every issue. It was attacked with a lot of vigor, as some didn't want old ages to be questioned. Another thought, is that differences in a pre flood world might (would) be different, so could account for some 'imperfections'. Continental plate movement by some, is thought to have occured, so why would it be the very same? Enough of antartica was mapped to make it of interest. No, it's not definitive. Very well could be based on some pre flood information, passed on, though. Or even recreated by memory by Noah's family afterward, and passed down?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by JonF, posted 01-29-2005 9:40 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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simple 
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 35 (181768)
01-30-2005 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by berberry
01-29-2005 3:56 AM


Re: All I can find...
"How does all this silly nonsense about a flood account for the fact that the Chinese have records for the entire period before, during and after this supposed flood? Of course, they had their "great flood" too, but it was at a different period of time, with different survivors. The bible says that only Noah and his family survived."
Must've been a different flood. If it was after, possibly some indirect result of the same flood, like a landslide dam breaking, and releasing water, etc.
"Most of the great cultures on earth have a flood legend of some sort. "
Yes. Amazing!
quote:
These were people who lived thousands of years ago. Ocean navigation as we know it didn't exist.
Guess it would depend on how many thousands of years. Noah had some sea experience!
quote:
In so many other places (Genesis 19, for example) fundies insist that the bible must be understood in the context in which it was written.
Really? Wow, haven't met one yet who thought sodom, and it's lesson was not true. Maybe if they were gay, they might lean that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by berberry, posted 01-29-2005 3:56 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by berberry, posted 01-30-2005 4:03 AM simple has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 35 (181772)
01-30-2005 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by simple
01-30-2005 3:16 AM


Re: All I can find...
simple writes me:
quote:
Guess it would depend on how many thousands of years. Noah had some sea experience!
Not in the modern sense. Ships hugged the coast wherever they went, and the trips were quite short.
I didn't mean to get bogged down in a discussion of the shipping trade at the time of Noah, I was merely making the point that people didn't travel much and were completely unaware of other cultures that existed even in their own region of the world. The idea that Noah might have experienced a flood that covered the entire world as he knew it seems to me enough to satisfy the biblical account. I don't understand why anyone finds it necessary to assert that Noah's flood covered the entire globe.
quote:
Really? Wow, haven't met one yet who thought sodom, and it's lesson was not true. Maybe if they were gay, they might lean that way.
A gay fundie? There may be one or two here and there, I suppose, but most of us aren't that dumb or masochistic.
Be that as it may, fundies most certainly do insist that Genesis 19 be interpreted in the context of its time. Otherwise they would have to acknowledge Lot as the greatest coward in all history, which they steadfastly refuse to do in spite of the overwhelming and utterly damning evidence provided by the bible.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by simple, posted 01-30-2005 3:16 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by simple, posted 01-30-2005 4:20 AM berberry has replied

  
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