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Author Topic:   Food for Noah's Ark survivors.
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 3 of 105 (385344)
02-15-2007 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
02-14-2007 6:39 PM


Maybe plants didn't die
I've used this one before. The response I got was that Gen 7:22 says "All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died." (italics mine).
So, the argument goes, plants etc weren't living, because they don't breath through their nostrils. Thus, the Bible doesn't say they died.
Something like that.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
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This message is a reply to:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 9 of 105 (385552)
02-16-2007 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by obvious Child
02-16-2007 2:41 AM


I'm under the impression that much of the vegetation we see today is dependent upon the organisms that live in the soil.
A creationist would no doubt point out that this may not have been the case with plants in Noah's day. It could have evolved since then as post-flood adaptation of the 'kinds' progressed.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 33 of 105 (385658)
02-16-2007 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by obvious Child
02-16-2007 11:29 AM


obvious Child writes:
Plus many species such as Koalas and Giraffes only eat a specific type of leaf, usually a older leaf from specific types of plants. The time table here doesn't make sense
I think they say that those dietary requirements are post-flood adaptations.
CreationWiki: Animals' exacting needs could have evolved after the flood

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 34 of 105 (385662)
02-16-2007 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Taz
02-16-2007 12:53 PM


Re: Trees can replicate without germination
According to CreationScience.com (see here). It does completely ignore dilution via diffusion though.
quote:
Suggestive of the time required for mixing a large body of water is the following:
If we think of the oceans as big interconnected basins, we can ask our question about circulation rates in terms of the average length of time that a water molecule spends in each basin. The results of such calculations indicate that water molecules spend from 200 to 500 years in the deep Atlantic before being transferred to another reservoir ... Karl K. Turekian, Oceans, 2nd edition (Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1976), p. 38.
They've even done an experiment (read abstract here)
quote:
The Noahic flood destroyed all the air breathing animals except those on the ark. No doubt the flood also took a major toll on freshwater and marine organisms due to the turbulence, turbidity, changes in salinity and temperature. Some marine animals survived by simply tolerating changes in salinity. Survival of a marine reef fish, Blue Damsel, Abudefduf uniocellatus, was tested at different rates of freshwater dilution. It was found that the salinity where the fish lost the ability to swim was the same when exposed to dilution rates of 15 0/00/hrs (parts per thousand per hour) and 1.5 0/00/hr but was higher with the slow dilution rate of 0.031 0/00/hr. These data suggest that the marine organisms could not have survived a homogeneous freshwater deluge.
A heterogeneous flood model was set up in a 55-gallon aquarium. A quantity of saltwater 20 cm deep was overlaid with freshwater and the system was exposed to outdoor summertime weather conditions in western Oklahoma. Marine algae (Phaeophyta and Chlorophyta), brine shrimp (Artemia nauplii), a hermit crab and some marine gastropods wee introduced int the saltwater portion. A goldfish (Carassius auratus), two mosquito fish (Gambusia affinis), and freshwater plants were introduced into the surface layer. Although some mixing occurred, all the organisms survived four week exposure to outdoor conditions suggesting that protected pockets of marine organisms may have survived the flood by being overlaid with freshwater.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 45 of 105 (386007)
02-18-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
02-18-2007 9:55 PM


Re: Trees can replicate without germination
They could always fall back on this:
quote:
Mark 10:27
"...with God all things are possible."
Maybe it's a miracle?
Edited by Doddy, : fixed citation

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

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Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 47 of 105 (386011)
02-19-2007 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by sidelined
02-18-2007 10:38 PM


Re: Trees can replicate without germination
CreationWiki sources their info from here:
Woodmorappe, John, 1996. Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study. Santee, CA: Institute for Creation Research, pp. 153-162
Also, a quick Google search reveals these pages:
Survival of Plants in the Flood
How did fish and plants survive the flood?
Chapter 14: Could fish and plants have survived?
All of which say similar things. I'll quote the latter:
quote:
Many terrestrial seeds can survive long periods of soaking in various concentrations of saltwater (Howe, 1968, CRSQ:105-112). Indeed, saltwater impedes the germination of some species so that the seed lasts better in saltwater than freshwater. Other plants could have survived in floating vegetation masses, or on pumice from the volcanic activity. Pieces of many plants are capable of asexual sprouting.
Many plants could have survived as planned food stores on the Ark, or accidental inclusions in such food stores. Many seeds have devices for attaching themselves to animals, and some could have survived the Flood by this means. Others could have survived in the stomachs of the
bloated, floating carcasses of dead herbivores.
The olive leaf brought back to Noah by the dove (Gen. 8:11) shows that plants were regenerating well before Noah and company left the Ark.
Edited by Doddy, : fixed quote

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 53 of 105 (386108)
02-19-2007 6:45 PM


Post-Flood Adaptation
I would like to see more discussion on the idea of saline sensitivity being a post-flood adaptation. It seems like a blatant wishful thinking to me, but how would one refute this claim?

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 56 of 105 (386157)
02-19-2007 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Doddy
02-19-2007 6:45 PM


Re: Post-Flood Adaptation
I've been thinking on this...and relearning all my plant biology.
You can't just seal the cell from water, because then it won't grow. So osmosis will be a factor. In order to prevent plasmolysis, the internal osmolality of the seed cells would need to be as high (or higher) than the salt concentration of the water.
Initially I thought this would quickly cause cytolysis in fresh water, but then I remembered the cell wall would probably prevent that (as I said, I'm rusty on plant biology). So, I'm left with one alternative.
No doubt seeds could have survived in salt water, and many species seeds (and their leaves and roots) do, but in order to ensure the internal osmolality of the seed cells, more solutes (in the form of nutrients, or perhaps excess sodium) would need to be tolerated in the cell. I doubt seeds can utilize active transport, because they have no energy source (they don't photosynthesise).
The problem is, that having such internal concentrations would hardly be good for the plant (extra nutrient requirements for one...I'm sure there are other reasons, but I'm not a botanist). So, the selection pressure against such high concentrations is quite large, so those plants that lived away from salty conditions would have quickly lost this adaptation.
Furthermore, if the seeds were isotonic with the floodwater, and the specific seed germination conditions that sidelined mentioned in his OP, this would result in many seeds germinating underwater, because a seed will germinate when it receives water.
Lastly, if these complex germination patterns only appeared after the flood, it would appear to contradict the creationist notion of evolution causing the loss of information and being unable to form ordered patterns.
That's my ramblings on the matter anyway. Anyone with more knowledge of plants is free to correct or elaborate on what I said.
Edited by Doddy, : clarification
Edited by Doddy, : expanded further

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

This message is a reply to:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 59 of 105 (386277)
02-20-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Taz
02-20-2007 3:51 PM


Re: Trees can replicate without germination
Side, it's already been established that plants aren't living things.
Or at least, that the authors of the bible didn't think so. It really made perfect sense to imagine an olive tree submerged for a year and then resuming normal growth once it received sunlight.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Taz, posted 02-20-2007 3:51 PM Taz has not replied

  
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