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Author Topic:   Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
RAZD
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Message 1 of 518 (467868)
05-25-2008 4:41 AM


There are fossil marine deposits on virtually every mountain, including Mt Everest.

These fossil deposits are all of mature marine life, clams many years old, etcetera. If they are evidence of a world wide flood then:

(1) the flood was much longer in duration than is the published conjecture, or

(2) the marine environment was unusually productive, in which case we come to the problem of trilobites ... and all other extinct marine fauna and flora from the Precambrian through the marine dinosaurs ... not surviving the flood.

Thus you have a logical contradiction.

Evidence of multiple layers of mature marine environments on mountains is rather evidence of long ages -- ages to form mature marine environments, ages to cover them, ages for the other mature marine environments to form, and ages for the sedimentary basin to be pushed up into mountains by tectonic activity.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
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Admin
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Message 2 of 518 (467881)
05-25-2008 8:43 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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RAZD
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Posts: 18814
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3 of 518 (467947)
05-25-2008 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
05-25-2008 8:43 AM


Thanks, it seems we have a new crop of creationists, hopefully one will advance some explanation.
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Minnemooseus
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Message 4 of 518 (468782)
06-01-2008 3:13 PM


Percy, from the "Absence of Evidence" topic
Percy writes:

The more familiar example is sea shells on mountain tops. Young earth creationists see this as evidence for a huge global flood lasting maybe a year, and it is. But you dig down a foot and find more shells, and that's evidence for a somewhat longer flood. Then you dig down 10 feet and find more shells, and that's evidence for a very long flood. And then you dig down 100 feet and find more shells, and now the flood hypothesis begins to feel a bit odd since these shells are encased in the mountain, indeed make up a measurable proportion of the mountain, and it doesn't make sense that the shells of successive generations of sea shelled creatures would deposit themselves on the sea floor in the shape of a mountain.

But sea shells on the surface are still evidence of a possible flood. And if digging had revealed no evidence of shells beneath the surface, guess what? The flood hypothesis would have to be considered a viable alternative, especially if other mountains around the world revealed the same pattern. So it absolutely isn't true that there is no evidence for Noah's flood. It's just that the evidence supporting the flood has more than one possible interpretation, and only when added to the other evidence does it become clear that there was never any such flood.


Source

My "bolding in red" - The difference between marine fossils merely being on a mountain topic, and marine fossils being part of the makeup of the entire mountain.

Moose


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deerbreh
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(1)
Message 5 of 518 (469429)
06-05-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Minnemooseus
06-01-2008 3:13 PM


Re: Percy, from the "Absence of Evidence" topic
There he goes again - refuting the YEC "Sea Shells on mountain tops!" meme with the inconvenient observation that the shells are also found in sediment layers WITHIN the mountain. Drat that Percy fellow.
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RAZD
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Posts: 18814
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Message 6 of 518 (469498)
06-05-2008 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by deerbreh
06-05-2008 3:09 PM


It;s only a matter of time ...
There he goes again - refuting the YEC "Sea Shells on mountain tops!" meme with the inconvenient observation that the shells are also found in sediment layers WITHIN the mountain. Drat that Percy fellow.

Yes, and when you combine the observation of layers on top of layers on top of layers with the observation that each layer contains fossils of sea shells with 20 to 30 years of annual growth patterns, you quickly add up to hundreds of years of marine deposits in each of these locations.

Conclusion: the evidence cannot be due to water covering these locations for only a few hundred days, and therefor it is de facto NOT evidence of any Noachin like flood event, but of something that occurred on a geological time scale.

Enjoy.


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RAZD
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Posts: 18814
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Message 7 of 518 (469549)
06-05-2008 11:44 PM


Bump for David101
David101:

The question is why are there fossils of 20 and 30 year old seashells on mountain tops ... and how this can be evidence for a flood of only a couple hundred days.

Add to that, the fact that clams and the like live as a free swimming larval stage for a year or so before growing a shell.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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deerbreh
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Message 8 of 518 (469582)
06-06-2008 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
06-05-2008 11:44 PM


Re: Bump for David101
quote:
The question is why are there fossils of 20 and 30 year old seashells on mountain tops ... and how this can be evidence for a flood of only a couple hundred days.

Oh that's no problem. Even I can answer that. Things got so churned up when the "fountains of the deep" opened up that shells were picked up topsy turvy and scattered all over the place. And the layers underneath? There were earlier floods of course which just aren't mentioned. But it says it had never rained before...never mind. Maybe it has something to do with the speed of light changing? Where is Duane Gish when you need a "Gish gallop" to an alternative explanation?


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BeagleBob
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Posts: 81
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(2)
Message 9 of 518 (469827)
06-07-2008 9:45 PM


Ever since I first heard about the "seashells on mountaintops = global flood" claim in high school, I really wondered how people who had basic education could make these sorts of claims so nonchalantly.

You learn about plate tectonics in elementary school. You learn about it again in high school. There's a Magic Schoolbus episode about plate tectonics, for Chrissake.


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bluescat48
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Message 10 of 518 (469830)
06-07-2008 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by BeagleBob
06-07-2008 9:45 PM


I don't know how or when plate tectonics is or was taught in grammar or high schools, but I never heard the term until I was in an Earth Science class in 1971 when I returned to college after my first army tour. It certainly explained many questions about the dynamics of the earth's crust.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


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Taz
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Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 518 (469846)
06-08-2008 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by bluescat48
06-07-2008 10:08 PM


Plate tectonics has been in elementary curriculum for a good 20 years. Nothing technical. Students are just presented with the fact that there are plates and that they move around, very very slowly pushing up some mountains and pushing down others. I still remember my very irreligious middle school science teacher telling us that most people have a problem understanding gradualism and that for most people catastrophism is a lot easier to swallow. If you think about it, it's true. Most people have trouble imagining a movement as slow as an inch in a couple years. They like the idea of earth shattering movements in a split second much much more.

Added by edit.

Just how many movies of natural disasters do you know with the disaster hitting people very very very very slowly? Just imagine what the ratings for the movie The Day After Tomorrow would have been like if the ice age hit the northern hemisphere in a timespan of several thousand years rather than just a couple of weeks?

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 12 of 518 (469916)
06-08-2008 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
06-08-2008 12:40 AM


Continental Drift accepted by the 1960s
I graduated from high school in 1969. I remember discussing continental drift in high school physical science class (1967 in a small rural high school in Pennsylvania}. It was in the earth science text I used to teach ninth graders in 1973 - and it was by no means a new textbook - at least 5 years old. So anyone who graduated from high school after 1970 should certainly have been exposed to the concept.

Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.


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RAZD
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Message 13 of 518 (469939)
06-08-2008 5:29 PM


So, can we get back to the shell game?
The topic is seashells, on mountains, being evidence of a flood.

thanks.


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BeagleBob
Member (Idle past 3150 days)
Posts: 81
Joined: 11-21-2007


Message 14 of 518 (469994)
06-08-2008 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
06-08-2008 5:29 PM


Re: So, can we get back to the shell game?
Sorry, but I thought it was relevant. After all, tectonic forces are what push seashell-bearing strata up to become mountains, aren't they?

Anyone with an elementary level of education should be able to figure this out. This is why it boggles the mind.


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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 15 of 518 (470128)
06-09-2008 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by BeagleBob
06-08-2008 8:32 PM


Re: So, can we get back to the shell game?
quote:
Sorry, but I thought it was relevant. After all, tectonic forces are what push seashell-bearing strata up to become mountains, aren't they?

Of course it is relevant. The topic is explaining why or why not sea shells on mountain tops are evidence for a global flood. The more parsimonius explanation for how sea shells got to be on mountaintops has to be relevant. A better explanation of the data is always relevant in scientific debate.


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