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Author Topic:   Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 376 of 519 (811814)
06-12-2017 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Faith
06-11-2017 8:01 PM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
The rocks exist, there is no denying them. Life can't live on a rock, and it can't live where enormous amounts of sediment are getting deposited. Despite what you think is OTHER evidence for your theory, these two facts I'm discussing here show to it to be absolutely impossible.
1. It wasn't rock when it was on the surface.
2. Life can live where sediments are being deposited. It is happening right now as I type - all over the place.
Your vision of sedimentary processes is extremely incorrect - and your argument that is based on that vision is fatally flawed.
Edited by New Cat's Eye, : typo: like --> life

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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 377 of 519 (811815)
06-12-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Faith
06-12-2017 10:21 AM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
quote:
Siccar has to be interpreted as I've done many times, as tectonic tilting of the lower section while the upper were in place.
But you provide no evidence in support of this scenario.
It is a loser from the start.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 10:21 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 378 of 519 (811817)
06-12-2017 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by New Cat's Eye
06-12-2017 10:22 AM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
In the Faith scenario, she would be correct since she needs to deposit astronomical amounts of sediment in one year.
But, once again, there is absolutely no evidence to support this.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 379 of 519 (811823)
06-12-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Faith
06-12-2017 9:27 AM


Re: What would it take to open your eyes, Faith?
If you can't see that throwing out practically all the evidence in favour of a dubious interpretations of few cherry-picked examples is pretty much proof that you are wrong, what would do it ?
quote:
The cross section(s) and the map along with tons of other eivdences of the same sort ARE evidence that shows the Time Scale couldn't possibly be true.
Not really, and you would see that if you seriously thought about the issue. If you just look at the map you can see the boundaries aren't simply the result of tilting strata (remember that the map only shows the rocks nearest the surface, not what is underneath them). And that's just one issue.
quote:
just think for a change, you'd have to recognize that layers of sediment cannot possibly represent time periods of millions of years.
Why couldn't it take millions of years for the original material to be deposited ?
quote:
and in fact nothing coujld possibly have lived when the layers were being deposited, just think for pete's sake,
We did. That's how we know that your assertion is a ridiculous falsehood. Maybe you should try thinking properly instead of just jumping to conclusions you like.
quote:
THEN AND ONLY THEN were they tilted and eroded and otherwise deformed. The cross section shows them tilted as a block. all of them from Precambrian to "present" time, and the map shows that they were all laid down and THEN eroded, -- eroded areas expose layers beneath.
Except for the cross-sections that show otherwise. Cherry-picking at its most obvious.
quote:
Really, all it takes is some honesty and clear thought.
If you tried that you would see that you are wrong, just as everyone else does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 9:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 380 of 519 (811831)
06-12-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by RAZD
06-12-2017 6:08 AM


Re: YEC Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is NOT Supported, Summary Statement is Garbage
Dragging major chunks of your "Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1" topic into this topic does not seem to be a good thing (IMO). Such should be debated at that topic location, not at this topic.
Adminnemooseus

Or something like that.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 381 of 519 (811842)
06-12-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by Adminnemooseus
06-12-2017 12:52 PM


Re: YEC Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is NOT Supported, Summary Statement is Garbage
Actually that last one was from the new version in the works, but I get your point.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 382 of 519 (811845)
06-12-2017 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by edge
06-12-2017 10:29 AM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
Concerning Siccar Point, there is no evidence to support the standard interpretation either, as is the case with so many things on your side -- as usual it is just assumed that the horizontal section was laid down later. I'd have to check Siccar again but my impression of many angular unconformities is that the upper section often looks sort of... perched there rather than deposited, which would be evidence on my side.
The cross section ought to be sufficient to show that the strata were all laid down before deformation, whatever you think of Siccar Point. And that order of things means the standard understanding of when Pangaea broke up is wrong.
The whole island was covered with strata, then deformed. Actually it looks like the entire island was raised to the north, which explains why the Cretaceous Dover cliffs go right down to the water though they are quite high in the geological column, though that's just a side observation, not an argument.
In any case the cross section I've posted so many times of the Grand Staircase-Grand Canyon area shows the same order of events, strata all in place followed by massive tectonic disturbance, raised land, volcanism, erosion.
I've shown dozens of other cross sections too to make the same point although they aren't as clear as these two -- they don't support an argument against it either though, they're just ambiguous.
The map adds to the picture by showing how the layers have been eroded away exposing the layer beneath in the usual Geo Time Scale order. Whole island composed of strata. It would be nice to see a three dimensional model of it, I bet one exists somewhere.
Perhaps Geology has taken note and has an explanation for the interesting Southwest-to-Northeast pattern of erosion indicated on the map? I've been wondering about that. Is that the direction the tilted strata follow perhaps, that are shown on the cross section? Otherwise it suggests the direction of the receding Flood water across the island, which I've been figuring occurred simultaneously with the whole tectonic upheaval.
Nobody believed Alfred Wegener at first either you know and a lot of his work must have involved looking at maps.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 385 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2017 12:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 383 of 519 (811847)
06-12-2017 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Faith
06-12-2017 5:24 PM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
Faith writes:
Concerning Siccar Point....
I know for sure that you've never been to Siccar Point. I'd put a bet on you never being to Scotland. I'm considering the odds of you not even having a passport.
I wonder, have you been to the Grand Canyon?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 5:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 6:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 384 of 519 (811850)
06-12-2017 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Tangle
06-12-2017 5:51 PM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
Either my observations are correct or they are not. I'm not the subject here, address my points. If I hung out at Siccar Point or the Grand Canyon for a year you wouldn't take anything I said any more seriously anyway, as well I know from the way creationists are treated who have spent lots of time at those sites.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 385 of 519 (811864)
06-13-2017 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Faith
06-12-2017 5:24 PM


Open your eyes Faith
quote:
Concerning Siccar Point, there is no evidence to support the standard interpretation either, as is the case with so many things on your side -- as usual it is just assumed that the horizontal section was laid down later.
The fact that Lyell had a workable explanation of how the angular unconformity formed while you do not means that it counts as evidence against you. Moreover, as we have discussed in the past there is evidence that the lower surface was eroded before the flat strata were deposited.
quote:
The cross section ought to be sufficient to show that the strata were all laid down before deformation, whatever you think of Siccar Point. And that order of things means the standard understanding of when Pangaea broke up is wrong.
Should it ? You will really have to explain why, especially in the light of the map.
quote:
In any case the cross section I've posted so many times of the Grand Staircase-Grand Canyon area shows the same order of events, strata all in place followed by massive tectonic disturbance, raised land, volcanism, erosion
it certainly does not. In fact it clearly shows that the Supergroup was tilted and eroded before the strata above it were deposited.
quote:
The map adds to the picture by showing how the layers have been eroded away exposing the layer beneath in the usual Geo Time Scale order. Whole island composed of strata. It would be nice to see a three dimensional model of it, I bet one exists somewhere.
I wonder what you think the "usual Geo Time Scale Order" is, and how you can identify it from the map.
quote:
Perhaps Geology has taken note and has an explanation for the interesting Southwest-to-Northeast pattern of erosion indicated on the map?
I could make a couple of guesses. Looking at the topography might be enlightening.
quote:
Is that the direction the tilted strata follow perhaps, that are shown on the cross section?
It is rather doubtful that the cross section shows tilted strata just from the scale of it. The Grand Canyon is only a mile deep. Imagine how much wider the strata would have to be to cover the distance form the West of Wales to the East of England. And the map certainly rules it out, with - to point out just one obvious example - the "Crag and Eocene" rocks extending from Essex on the East coast, West into Dorset - south of the Severn Valley.
quote:
Otherwise it suggests the direction of the receding Flood water across the island, which I've been figuring occurred simultaneously with the whole tectonic upheaval.
Not really. Aside from the fact that we know that there were multiple tectonic upheavals spread over time you really need to take the erosion into account.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 5:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 386 of 519 (811866)
06-13-2017 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Faith
06-12-2017 6:03 PM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
If I hung out at Siccar Point or the Grand Canyon for a year you wouldn't take anything I said any more seriously anyway
So you've never been to the Grand Canyon or Siccar Point.
as well I know from the way creationists are treated who have spent lots of time at those sites.
How many of them are making the claims you make here, or even using arguments similar to yours?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 6:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 387 of 519 (811867)
06-13-2017 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by NoNukes
06-13-2017 12:25 AM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
Terrible isn't it that I have such nerve? I agree. I know when I'm right. Terrible.
I wonder if edge has been to Siccar Point?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 388 of 519 (811869)
06-13-2017 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
06-13-2017 12:37 AM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
Terrible isn't it that I have such nerve?
Not terrible, and not particularly nervy.
But when you say that there is no evidence for some proposition, when you have no experience with the location of that evidence, your authority is much diminished. You may have looked at pictures that you feel support your position, but you really have no way to say what cannot be found at the Grand Canyon with any degree of certainty. At least when folks quote scientists they are relating what was actually observed.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 12:37 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 389 of 519 (811880)
06-13-2017 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Faith
06-12-2017 6:03 PM


Re: Time Scale is Disproved, Flood is Well Supported, Summary Statement
Faith writes:
If I hung out at Siccar Point or the Grand Canyon for a year you wouldn't take anything I said any more seriously anyway, as well I know from the way creationists are treated who have spent lots of time at those sites.
You have no qualifications in any of the subjects you pontificate on and in geology you've never looked at the rocks you're talking about or been to the places they lie in. Yet you tell that that have the learning and have seen the rock that they're wrong.
You're a parochial, armchair commentator making stuff up as it suits you. Had you done any of these things, you WOULD have more credibility. But then you'd also know that what you're taking about is wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 6:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 390 of 519 (811882)
06-13-2017 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
06-13-2017 12:37 AM


Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits
It seems we are getting away from the Trilobites and Marine Deposits and the discussion of mountains has devolved into something other than the composition of layers and layers and layers of marine deposits in the rocks making up the non-volcanic mountains all over the world.
At this point I'm sick of Siccar point chatter, so let's talk trilobites.
quote:
Trilobites (pronunciation: /ˈtraɪləˌbaɪt, ˈtrɪ-, -loʊ-/;[2][3] meaning "three lobes") are a fossil group of extinct marine arachnomorph arthropods that form the class Trilobita. Trilobites form one of the earliest known groups of arthropods. The first appearance of trilobites in the fossil record defines the base of the Atdabanian stage of the Early Cambrian period (521 million years ago), and they flourished throughout the lower Paleozoic era before beginning a drawn-out decline to extinction when, during the Devonian, all trilobite orders except the Proetids died out. Trilobites disappeared in the mass extinction at the end of the Permian about 252 million years ago. The trilobites were among the most successful of all early animals, roaming the oceans for over 270 million years.[4]
By the time trilobites first appeared in the fossil record, they were already highly diversified and geographically dispersed. Because trilobites had wide diversity and an easily fossilized exoskeleton, an extensive fossil record was left behind, with some 17,000 known species spanning Paleozoic time. The study of these fossils has facilitated important contributions to biostratigraphy, paleontology, evolutionary biology, and plate tectonics. Trilobites are often placed within the arthropod subphylum Schizoramia within the superclass Arachnomorpha (equivalent to the Arachnata),[5] although several alternative taxonomies are found in the literature.
Trilobites had many lifestyles; some moved over the sea bed as predators, scavengers, or filter feeders, and some swam, feeding on plankton. Most lifestyles expected of modern marine arthropods are seen in trilobites, with the possible exception of parasitism (scientific debate continues).[6] Some trilobites (particularly the family Olenidae) are even thought to have evolved a symbiotic relationship with sulfur-eating bacteria from which they derived food.[7]
There are no trilobites today, so all we know is from the fossil record.
Spanning such a long time period with so many species, the different species have been associated with layers of specific ages -- biostratigraphy -- so that when they are found we know the relative age of that rock. Species A is associated with rock of relative age A, species B is associated with relative age B.
We can date the layers with radioactive isotopes using measurements of their concentrations.
Again this sorting of fossils into specific strata is a problem (Faith will deny it) for flood fantasies folks -- water does not sort similar organisms, only magic ... or time ... but that is not the only problem that Faith and other creationists have:
Why do one species of trilobites appear only in rocks that date to a specific radiometric time frame and others appear only in rocks that date to a different radiometric time frame?
Let's ignore for now what those dates are and how they are calculated, just that they are derived from the specific isotopes of radioactive elements and their measurable concentrations in the rocks:
How does the water sort those isotopes in the specific concentrations to match those trilobites with different concentrations for different trilobites?
Does water have some "Geiger counter" ability heretofore unknown?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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